FORUMS > The Sin Bin > Scottish Referendum |
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| Quote: Cronus "Alex Salmond claimed victory in the last debate partly due to apparently establishing that Scotland would be able to use the pound. That, and the fact he shouted down a flustered Alistair Darling.
What Darling attempted to get across, but was ignored by the whopping 'Yes' crowd, was that yes, they could use the pound, but they could also use the ruble, the Euro or the dinar if they so chose. It might be the pound in name and appearance but that's all. Furthermore, it seems it would be impossible for an independent Scotland to join the EU if it used the pound without a formal currency deal or its own central bank (taken from rlthis excellent articlerl on the subject).
And the oil debate. So what if it runs out in 10, 40 or 80 years? The one thing everyone agrees in is that it's finite. It's going to run out.
Too many grey areas for me and most Scots I've spoken to. Unfortunately the emotive side of the 'Yes' argument is sucking people in.
Wonder if Braveheart will be showing on the evening of the 17th.'"
I tried to watch but had to turn off because Salmond didn't seem interested in having a debate. He was particularly bad during the part where he was supposed to be answering Darling's questions. The moderator seemed to be doing a pretty p155 poor job.
Regarding oil, rlthis blokerl seems to suggest it might not be theirs. I've tried looking for some information to back the claims up but without any luck.
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| How much is it going to cost them to "rebrand" everything if they do choose independence?
Will everyone need a new driving licence? Will they have to issue their own passports?
Raising taxes themselves seems a good way to pay for all that.
Or is it independence-lite and they want to keep the good bits/stuff they get for "free"?
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| Quote: Dally "Having just got back from a couple of weeks in Scotland, the "Yes" voters are much more apparent. The No campaign seems to have a much lower profile and "No" voters seem afraid to express their views to their vociferous "Yes" neighbours. Based on what you see I think "Yes" could edge it. It is to be hoped though that the quieter No voters will simply turn up on the day and vote No.
Part of the problem for the No campaign is they have no cause and no credible "leader". The PM should be up there but, of course, given their hatred of Tories it has been felt he should keep out and also it would be wrong to have the English meddling in the Scottish vote. In some ways I think that is counter-productive as it suggests Westminster doesn't care about Scotland, which at the end of the day is in large part what this is about - distance and disillusionment with Westminster.
So, No is lead by a Labour figure and he doesn't seem up to the job, having no charisma.
Last weeks "debate", which I watched, was shocking. Salmond acted like a yob and just shouted down and interrupted Darling continuously. Nevertheless, because Darling was fixated with the currency question which the live audience were sick of he was felt to have been trounced. He didn't have the sense to change direction even when the audience were booing and heckling for keep asking about the currency.
I think it will be sad if they go independent. There will be lots of things that will change for us as well as them. One of the biggest losses will be the world's best flag! I think Scotland will become poorer over time and the rest of the UK poorer in the short-term. From a strategic point of view we lose a big chunk of our armed forces personnel and the US, fast looking East rather than to Europe, may lose interest in us.
One consequence may be the rise of English nationalism, which the establishment is always at pains to contain (although they may be happy to go along with to prevent independence movements in Cornwall, Yorkshire, etc).
A big threat to Scotland could be if they vote Yes and we get out of the EU. Then we could charge lorries crossing England to / from Scotland to use our M -ways (nice earner for Switzerland), could be trade barriers over time, etc if we are not all part of the EU single market.
Interesting times but I think a Yes vote will be detrimental to Scotland and us.'"
I work in Scotland. Based on what I see/hear it's about 70/30 in favour of no. It's just that the yes minority seem to shout louder. Of course that's only based on the people I know and work with and other parts of the country could be different, but I am expecting a no vote.
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| No matter what the result is will the hatred and vitriol that has come up over the past few months ever be forgotten?
If it is a 'No' vote will nationalists be demanding another refferendum within the next ten years?
If it is a yes vote will Scots soon be asking to rejoin the Union? What will happen in areas that voted overwhelmingly to stay in the union, will they sit back and accept independence?
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| Quote: wigan_rlfc "No matter what the result is will the hatred and vitriol that has come up over the past few months ever be forgotten?
If it is a 'No' vote will nationalists be demanding another refferendum within the next ten years?
If it is a yes vote will Scots soon be asking to rejoin the Union? What will happen in areas that voted overwhelmingly to stay in the union, will they sit back and accept independence?'"
After a couple of years the no voters, which will be in Borders, Edinburgh and parts of Glasgow (ie Southern half of country, nearer to England) will ask for help. The English government will send some SAS in without insignia and stack tamks up ar Berwick-upon-Tweed. There will be a bit of a scrap and Putin will place economic sanctions on England.
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| Quote: Dally "After a couple of years the no voters, which will be in Borders, Edinburgh and parts of Glasgow (ie Southern half of country, nearer to England) will ask for help. The English government will send some SAS in without insignia and stack tamks up ar Berwick-upon-Tweed. There will be a bit of a scrap and Putin will place economic sanctions on England.'"
Is anybody allowed to shoot a plane load of Americans down whilst the squabble ensues?
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| I think it will be no, but it's getting far too close for comfort. And you can guarantee Salmond will want another go in 10 years time.
If it is yes, I predict as follows:
The next 2 years will be spent arguing over who gets what, rather than dealing with important issues such as the economy / terrorism / immigration / the NHS etc...We will probably have to get international arbitrators in, because it will get seriously messy and heated.
The EU will refuse Scotland entry. As they won't have control of their own currency. Major banks and businesses with head offices in Scotland will shut up shop and move south of the border.
The 'rest of the UK' will not see another Labour government for 25 years, possibly even longer.
In around 10 years time the people of Scotland will realise they have been sold a complete pup. There will be serious economic problems, mass unemployment, and their government will simply not have enough money to fund the huge public spending and social welfare programme that Salmond has promised. People will become seriously disgruntled, the country will go into economic meltdown like Greece, there will be rioting and the beginnings of a serious political movement to rejoin the union.
The sums simply do not add up. Salmond is like a 25 year old in a car showroom. He wants to drive the 4 litre sports car dream, and is going to stick it all on finance without any real thought as to how he is going to pay for it.
As for 16 years old voting, these people have been nowhere and done nothing and got no real life experience. Giving them a vote is ridiculous.
Personally I want them to stay. My employer has quite a lot of stuff going on up there, and my private pension is with a Scottish company. But that does sound rather self-serving.
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| It's probably the first vote in my lifetime I've become interested in.
I hope they vote for independence. I can't imagine they'll do a worse job running themselves than being the very junior partner in a union lead by David Cameron.
I don't think there should have been much of a campaign about sticking together. They should have simply made a statement that the union has been strong and worked well for centuries. But if the Scottish truly felt they could govern themselves independently then we'd make the split as quick and clean as possible and wish them well in the future.
Instead the English seem terrified at being dumped and threatening to fight over every issue and making things as tough as they can.
The biggest problem for Scottish independence IMO is English interference after they go. Refusing the pound isn't about what is best for a separated Scotland and UK, it's about trying to scare them into a no vote.
Cameron's latest gem is to say that Scotland will be at greater risk of terror if they split because they won't be protected by our defence and the security services. That's close to scraping the barrel. He'll be saying it's not what god would want next.
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| Quote: Lord God Jose Mourinho "It's probably the first vote in my lifetime I've become interested in.
I hope they vote for independence. I can't imagine they'll do a worse job running themselves than being the very junior partner in a union lead by David Cameron.
I don't think there should have been much of a campaign about sticking together. They should have simply made a statement that the union has been strong and worked well for centuries. But if the Scottish truly felt they could govern themselves independently then we'd make the split as quick and clean as possible and wish them well in the future.
Instead the English seem terrified at being dumped and threatening to fight over every issue and making things as tough as they can.
The biggest problem for Scottish independence IMO is English interference after they go. Refusing the pound isn't about what is best for a separated Scotland and UK, it's about trying to scare them into a no vote.
Cameron's latest gem is to say that Scotland will be at greater risk of terror if they split because they won't be protected by our defence and the security services. That's close to scraping the barrel. He'll be saying it's not what god would want next.'"
Scotland will be foreign country so why should English tax payers have to provide their health care or security. Salmond is confident he can cherrypick what Scotland would take from the rest of the Union. He is going to look a prat when the pigeons come home to roost on an independant country. He is totally relying on oil revenues apart from that they only have tourism.
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| Quote: Wharfedale "]
Scotland will be foreign country so why should English tax payers have to provide their health care or security. Salmond is confident he can cherrypick what Scotland would take from the rest of the Union. He is going to look a prat when the pigeons come home to roost on an independant country. He is totally relying on oil revenues apart from that they only have tourism.'"
pigeons and roosting, we heard it here first.
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| Quote: Lord God Jose Mourinho "
Cameron's latest gem is to say that Scotland will be at greater risk of terror if they split because they won't be protected by our defence and the security services. That's close to scraping the barrel. He'll be saying it's not what god would want next.'"
Apparently the 'fast air' element of the Scottish Defence Force is going to consist of 8 Eurofighter Typhoons.
At any point 50% will be in deep maintenance, and of the ones that are operational 50% are used for training. Leaving them with 2 functioning aircraft at any given time.
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| Quote: The Video Ref "Apparently the 'fast air' element of the Scottish Defence Force is going to consist of 8 Eurofighter Typhoons.
At any point 50% will be in deep maintenance, and of the ones that are operational 50% are used for training. Leaving them with 2 functioning aircraft at any given time.'"
The only thing Scotland should be doing with the 8 Eurofighter Typhoons is selling them.
Who do Scotland need to defend themselves from?
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| Quote: Mr. Zucchini Head "I work in Scotland. Based on what I see/hear it's about 70/30 in favour of no. It's just that the yes minority seem to shout louder. Of course that's only based on the people I know and work with and other parts of the country could be different, but I am expecting a no vote.'"
My sense is that Highlands and Islands will vote Yes quite strongly. I would guess Edinburgh will vote No relatively strongly. The South - I don't know, would guess No. Glasgow - I think will be split and will decide it overall. I too would guess overall a No result but I now think it could go Yes but am hoping sense will prevail in the ballot box and there is a strong No vote. As a matter of interest, where are you based?
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| Quote: The Video Ref "
The 'rest of the UK' will not see another Labour government for 25 years, possibly even longer.
'"
How do you work that one out?
Only twice since WW2 (1964, 1974) would Labour have failed to gain an overall majority.
Now compare that to the fact that in 1955 the tories held the majority of Scottish seats and now they are reduced to one.
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| Quote: Wharfedale "]
Scotland will be foreign country so why should English tax payers have to provide their health care or security. Salmond is confident he can cherrypick what Scotland would take from the rest of the Union. '"
Exactly. Its this that I don't get - They want to be 'independent' but still want Britain to provide them with all the nice stuff, like a currency, or a well produced, professional TV provider, like the BBC.... By all means go it alone, good luck to them, but things like the BBC and the Pound are the very things that make being IN a union a benefit to them - You vote out, and quite simply they should be exempt from all the things that Britain provides.
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