There is that, for sure. Shame, really.

In any case, I'm sure you're not suggesting that Andrew Lloyd Webber is not credible...?

Well not if you actually like musical theatre and consider it a credible art form.


And Jedward make records?????

I suppose he's in the fortunate position that he doesn't need to be seen to be 'cool' to be successful in his chosen field.

Austria's song is so brilliantly stupid that it's amazing.

For anyone wanting a "listen" search "Woki mit deim Popo" on a certain video site.

I thought you liked musical theatre, Mintball...?

What snobbery. At his peak, Lloyd Webber wrote some of the most memorable and successful musical theatre songs ever, so his 'credibility' is hardly in any doubt. And in my book, songs like Memory, I Don't Know How To Love Him, Music Of the Night etc. are actually brilliant popular music, and have more than stood the test of time.

Totally agree with that. I tend to prefer Boublil & Schoenberg personally, but you can't deny that ALW has the ability to write spine tingling music with just the right amount of scmaltz to make it popular listening. That takes a hell of a lot of talent.

So if I've got this right, the Irish picked Jedward last year and have done so again this year?

Yes. I do. That's the point.

With a vengeance,

The final argument there doesn't work – any more than saying that, because it sells a lot, the [iSun[/i is the greatest newspaper in the UK or McDonalds is the best restaurant.

I made a qualification for [iLes Mis[/i – see above. Personally, I remember [iMaster of the House[/i, the dream one and, I think, the act one close, which seemed to me to be the one really spine-tingling moment in the entire show.

But you don't have to have seen any Rogers and Hammerstein to have heard the tunes – unlike what you're asserting here with [iMiss Saignon[/i.

[iThere Is Nothing Like a Dame[/i, [iYou'll Never Walk Alone[/i, [iMy Favourite Things[/i, [iOklahoma![/i, [iThe March of the Siamese Children[/i – these are part of a widespread popular cultural currency. You might not have heard them in their original context, but you'll have heard them. They've been part of a soundtrack to western (certainly English-speaking) life for 40 years and more.

Goodness – almost the entire score of [iThe Sound of Music[/i alone is popular currency – and whether one likes it or not is beside the point.

And you will know Gershwin and Porter songs – unless you are a total cultural illiterate (and no, I am not posting that as an insult). Their work – like many of R&H's songs – has spread itself beyond the boundaries of an actual stage show or film.

For goodness sake, if someone doesn't have even a vague awareness of [iSummertime[/i, they need shooting. If you want to hear really top-notch popular music, listen to the Gershwin or the Porter Songbooks, recorded by Ella Fitzgerald. This is stuff that people still sing and people still record.

As for lyricists – well, I scarcely know what to say if you really think that.

[iI've Got a Little List[/i would be no different without the words (and Gilbert & Sullivan are one of the harbingers of the modern musical theatre). All the songs from [iCabaret[/i – the words tell us nothing; they add nothing to the story. Nobody on the Kop actually bothers singing the words of [iYou'll Never Walk Alone[/i – they adopted it as a club anthem for the music alone so they actually just go 'la la la la la' ...

And god help us if this is snobbery. Because it will simply indicate just how far down the path of mediocrity and dross we have gone.

I am clearly virtually noboby! Could not in a million years have named those songs from PoO (no pun intended). Even when you've written them down they mean nothing to me. I concede if I heard the main one(s) I would no doubt recognise it (them), but names , no. From Evita, I could only name Don't Cry for Me Argentina.

Mind you, I have heard of ALL the R&H ones that Mintball listed. That though is probably due to the power of film.