FORUMS > The Sin Bin > Education, education, education and war |
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| Quote: The Ghost of '99 "Membership of a free trade area with no customs is "lefty" now. The world's gone mad - or rather the Tory party has.'"
I would love to be a member of that club as that's the one we joined. However it isn't just that is it? But you know that of course
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33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
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| Quote: The Ghost of '99 "Membership of a free trade area with no customs is "lefty" now. The world's gone mad - or rather the Tory party has.'"
First country to ever request trade sanctions be applied to itself... and then keep asking for less favourable terms.
Quote: The Ghost of '99 "I would love to be a member of that club as that's the one we joined. However it isn't just that is it? But you know that of course'"
Would you have been happy with a future relationship in line with the withdrawal agreement negotiated by Boris Johnson, which was ready to go... and avoided the further uncertainty of Labour’s back to the drawing board approach? Or are you happier that they’ve binned that off to pursue whatever they’re doing now?
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22575.gif "Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs.":22575.gif |
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| Quote: wotsupcas "I would love to be a member of that club as that's the one we joined. However it isn't just that is it? But you know that of course'" There isn't a unicorn version of what you want unfortunately. To make trade barrier free and frictionless you have to concede certain aspects of "sovereignty", be it the right to impose tarriffs, the right to inspect goods without reason, the right to overtly prop up industries that are competing with companies in other countries, the right to separately negotiate external trade deals etc etc. Either we decide we want enjoy mutual prosperity with our neighbours or we don't; but the kicker of course is that we end up following so many EU rules anyway given our proximity and relative size to the EU market - except now we have no say in the framing of those rules any more, many of which had been so carefully crafted in the UK's favour over many years.
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| Quote: The Ghost of '99 "There isn't a unicorn version of what you want unfortunately. To make trade barrier free and frictionless you have to concede certain aspects of "sovereignty", be it the right to impose tarriffs, the right to inspect goods without reason, the right to overtly prop up industries that are competing with companies in other countries, the right to separately negotiate external trade deals etc etc. Either we decide we want enjoy mutual prosperity with our neighbours or we don't; but the kicker of course is that we end up following so many EU rules anyway given our proximity and relative size to the EU market - except now we have no say in the framing of those rules any more, many of which had been so carefully crafted in the UK's favour over many years.'"
When we voted to join in the 70's it was sold as a free trade agreement and that's what we signed up for. It was a blatant lie. Nobody voted for what we ended up with. If the full intent had been put before the British public before that vote we'd have never joined.
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22575.gif "Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs.":22575.gif |
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| Quote: wotsupcas "When we voted to join in the 70's it was sold as a free trade agreement and that's what we signed up for. It was a blatant lie. Nobody voted for what we ended up with. If the full intent had been put before the British public before that vote we'd have never joined.'" This is a bit of a trope unfortunately.
But, regardless, this "stop the world, I want to get off" worldview is thoroughly impractical. You need to deal with the world as it is, not as you'd wish it to be. And the reality is that the planet is divided into huge trading blocs - and we've just extracted ourselves from the one we were, logically, part of and are now hoping to get deals with everyone, few of which will be better - and most of which by matter of law [ican't[/i be better - than we had already under the EU.
Anyway, just you wait until you see the state of the unelected bureaucracy of the World Trade Organisation
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icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.:icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg |
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| Quote: The Ghost of '99 "Membership of a free trade area with no customs is "lefty" now. The world's gone mad - or rather the Tory party has.'"
Your struggle with comprehension continues - the "lefty" refers to the notion that lefties know what's best for us all and we should bow down to their superior knowledge (sic).
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Rank | Posts | Team |
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33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
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| Quote: Sal Paradise "Your struggle with comprehension continues - the "lefty" refers to the notion that lefties know what's best for us all and we should bow down to their superior knowledge (sic).'"
Is that unique to the left though? Doesn’t the right feel that its approach is best?
There may be a difference in tone sometimes (lecturing and sanctimonious versus angry and wanting to tear down shibboleths), but who is on which side of that changes issue by issue.
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Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 12642 | |
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Jun 2007 | 17 years | |
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33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
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| Quote: wotsupcas "When we voted to join in the 70's it was sold as a free trade agreement and that's what we signed up for. It was a blatant lie. Nobody voted for what we ended up with. If the full intent had been put before the British public before that vote we'd have never joined.'"
There is a pleasing symmetry to the manner of our departure then, I suppose.
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icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.:icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg |
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| Quote: Mild Rover "Is that unique to the left though? Doesn’t the right feel that its approach is best?
There may be a difference in tone sometimes (lecturing and sanctimonious versus angry and wanting to tear down shibboleths), but who is on which side of that changes issue by issue.'"
Whether its Socialism, Marxism, Communism it is about central control - they know what's best and those that can play the political game do best not those who generate most - does that remind you of any organisation? Its a race to the bottom - not bring the bottom up its bring the top down - that's the essential difference between left and right - we have never found a better way of improving overall wealth than Capitalism yet the likes of you despise it yet enjoy its benefits?
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Rank | Posts | Team |
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33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
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| Quote: Sal Paradise "Whether its Socialism, Marxism, Communism it is about central control - they know what's best and those that can play the political game do best not those who generate most - does that remind you of any organisation? Its a race to the bottom - not bring the bottom up its bring the top down - that's the essential difference between left and right - we have never found a better way of improving overall wealth than Capitalism yet the likes of you despise it yet enjoy its benefits?'"
I think you’re describing authoritarianism, and that is not unique to the left by any means.
I don’t despise capitalism. I do lean to the left by UK standards and even in a rational capitalist system I‘d have significant concerns about the distribution of the wealth it generates, over the longer term.
My main criticism now, which seems to be shared by some capitalist theoreticians, is that our current capitalistic system is often irrational, corrupted and/or open to being gamed. That is, there’s too much incentive to play the system rather than to generate real value or, more narrowly, new wealth.
Right is used to cover a broadly capatalist-nationalist alliance. Brexit exposes tensions and contradictions within that broad position. Being a broad position, there’s no surprise it has such... complexity. There are tensions between my socialist-lite and liberal opinions on some issues, I don’t doubt. And, of course, my occasional preference for a policy from the right.
Out of interest, if the two choices available to you were being a citizen of capitalist United States of Europe or of a socialist United Kingdom, which would you prefer, hypothetically?
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22575.gif "Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs.":22575.gif |
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| Quote: Sal Paradise "Your struggle with comprehension continues - the "lefty" refers to the notion that lefties know what's best for us all and we should bow down to their superior knowledge (sic).'"
I believe in free trade; all you can come up with are vast armies of straw men about how "socialism" is actually authoritarianism and a threat to our capitalist way and life (I mean honestly, it's madness - do you really think we live in a purely capitalist country now? Are you that far out of touch with reality?) and some amazing rubbish which appears to involve anyone who knows stuff should pipe down because expertise is not a value we require any more.
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22575.gif "Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs.":22575.gif |
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| Quote: Mild Rover "Out of interest, if the two choices available to you were being a citizen of capitalist United States of Europe or of a socialist United Kingdom, which would you prefer, hypothetically?'"
I think you've just blown his mind with those two options - he doesn't even know that the UK is already full of "socialist" programmes.
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| What you are saying is that if it was a Labour government giving itself additional powers to run people’s lives you would not accept it because the Conservatives appear to be doing exactly that. They have in the time since Johnson was elected severely limited public freedoms and also restricted debate despite the promise the parliament would regain its sovereignty. We are now closer to any totalitarian state in our history. I wonder when the pandemic is over which it will eventually be despite this government’s many failures how many of these new laws will be rescinded.
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33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
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Quote: The Ghost of '99 "I think you've just blown his mind with those two options - he doesn't even know that the UK is already full of "socialist" programmes.'"
It is a silly question in a few ways. It depends on the degree of capitalism and socialism. And obviously socialist systems can be irrational, corrupt and prone to being gamed as well. I’d take well-regulated capitalism over badly designed socialism everyday.
However it did make me think about my own order of priorities. I lean toward internationalism, especially when we face so many global challenges - but would I put that ahead of a more equitable society in the UK?
Another random thought on your point the UK socialist programmes. The right view privatisation of the rail network as sensible and desirable. Generally speaking, obviously they’re not all of one mind. But nobody ever floats privatising the whole road network. Or not that I’ve seen, at least. I Google it now. There’s the M6 toll, of course.
Edit - actually there was a little flurry of articles through 2012 and 2013, and the Cameron govt seemed to be thinking about it. One example...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17429483
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Quote: The Ghost of '99 "I think you've just blown his mind with those two options - he doesn't even know that the UK is already full of "socialist" programmes.'"
It is a silly question in a few ways. It depends on the degree of capitalism and socialism. And obviously socialist systems can be irrational, corrupt and prone to being gamed as well. I’d take well-regulated capitalism over badly designed socialism everyday.
However it did make me think about my own order of priorities. I lean toward internationalism, especially when we face so many global challenges - but would I put that ahead of a more equitable society in the UK?
Another random thought on your point the UK socialist programmes. The right view privatisation of the rail network as sensible and desirable. Generally speaking, obviously they’re not all of one mind. But nobody ever floats privatising the whole road network. Or not that I’ve seen, at least. I Google it now. There’s the M6 toll, of course.
Edit - actually there was a little flurry of articles through 2012 and 2013, and the Cameron govt seemed to be thinking about it. One example...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17429483
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icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.:icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg |
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| Quote: The Ghost of '99 "I believe in free trade; all you can come up with are vast armies of straw men about how "socialism" is actually authoritarianism and a threat to our capitalist way and life (I mean honestly, it's madness - do you really think we live in a purely capitalist country now? Are you that far out of touch with reality?) and some amazing rubbish which appears to involve anyone who knows stuff should pipe down because expertise is not a value we require any more.'"
Not at all - you have a valid opinion - what seems to be the case is you are suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with your view of the world is stupid - especially if they voted to leave the EU.
We have a mixed economy but it is the capitalist businesses that drive wealth generation - surely even you can see that? The money it generates allows for taxes to be collected to provide all those touchy/feely services you so admire.
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