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Quote Ferocious Aardvark="Ferocious Aardvark"The population of the UK has gone up by a few million in recent years. It doesn't matter where they are living, you have to accept that they are living somewhere. As a percentage, only a tiny minority are homeless. Here are the facts
Up from 54m in 1964 to 64m now and the trend is a steady and quite steep increase.
there is no dispute that as any given district became predominantly Asian, this led to pubs and clubs closing for lack of trade. However
a) ALL those pubs' ex-customers, potentially, would be available for trade at some OTHER pub, near to wherever they moved to. As we all accept, social habits have changed but those people largely would still drink, and COULD be persuaded into pubs if the right deal (to them) was on offer.
b) The more recent influx of white European drinkers was sadly much too late for many pubs, as once they have closed, they have tended to be converted to other uses, and I don't know of any that have later re-converted back to a pub. So you again have drinkers back in a given area, but they have to make other arrangements for their drinking unless and until someone takes a punt that there is enough demand to open up a hostelry.
But who suggested otherwise? The points are so obvious as to be banal. Anyway, there are those whose job it is to analyse trends and habits in the minutest detail and it is a whole host of factors. You may find some very interesting reading, for example, here: store.mintel.com/beer-uk-december-2013'"
All good points, however Lord Hodgson is being berated for stating that, "in areas of Nottingham, Leicester, Manchester, Leeds and Birmingham the increase in the Muslim population who don't drink leads to many pub closures", a statement which is entirely true, given he hasn't even named this as the sole reason, but cites other influences. I would also add the smoking ban and simply the ever-growing cost of a pint, but a huge increase in a non-drinking population in an area will clearly be a significant factor.
While indeed the UK population has grown, break that down to the small catchment area of a local pub and the numbers become insignificant. I'd also wager that many pub closures are in areas similar to those close to me - old working class industrial areas now massively dominated by immigrant, mostly Muslim, populations. And yes, the population that has moved away no doubt now drink elsewhere - probably one of the soulless pub chains that seem to be the only pubs opening these days, or at home (or perhaps they have families and don't frequent pubs as often, or have died) - but that doesn't change the key fact: they have been replaced by a non-drinking population and their old local pubs have gone.
It's a simple equation: overwhelm an area with a population that doesn't drink (publicly), and the local pubs will see a decline in business. Similarly, many churches in areas dominated by Muslim communities have closed. If an area was suddenly dominated by Hindus I expect a fried chicken joint would see a decline in business.
I don't really see what the issue is - actually I do, it's knee-jerk media looking for a story. In reality, anyone choosing to 'take offence' really is scraping the barrel, yet there they are...and predictably they've rolled out quotes from "leaders of Britain's Muslim community"...
Quote Ferocious AardvarkIndeed they do. And much more than I'd venture most people think. But you wouldn't I take it suggest that the additional sales of alcohol to muslims is anything other than a statistically insignificant percentage? You've raised an interesting point, though. Here's a couple of short articles on Muslims and alcohol, which will have quite a few eyebrow raising snippets for most people.
[urlhttp://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Alcohol_and_Drugs#Pakistan[/url
[urlhttp://www.economist.com/node/21560543[/url
The stats are that between 2001 and 2011 alcohol consumption in the West increased by around 30%. In Muslim countries it increased by over 70% and that ain't all tourists.
However the fact is that no Muslim would openly admit to drinking, and even though alcohol is seemingly not at all prohibited, the position is that it may as well be, as the religious fundamentalists who are present everywhere have in recent times taken the position that a muslim must not drink alcohol, and whilst in private many may disagree, in public nobody is brave enough to open a debate about it. For these reasons, alcohol consumption in the UK by members of the muslim population isn't going to make any pub landlord rich.'"
I never said it would. Simply making an observation. I once discussed this with a Muslim friend who liked his beer - his reply as he supped his lager was, "yes, I'm a Muslim, but I'm a bad Muslim." Oddly, a Muslim waiter in Kalkan, Turkey said exactly the same thing a few years later, word-for-word. |
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Quote Ferocious Aardvark="Ferocious Aardvark"The population of the UK has gone up by a few million in recent years. It doesn't matter where they are living, you have to accept that they are living somewhere. As a percentage, only a tiny minority are homeless. Here are the facts
Up from 54m in 1964 to 64m now and the trend is a steady and quite steep increase.
there is no dispute that as any given district became predominantly Asian, this led to pubs and clubs closing for lack of trade. However
a) ALL those pubs' ex-customers, potentially, would be available for trade at some OTHER pub, near to wherever they moved to. As we all accept, social habits have changed but those people largely would still drink, and COULD be persuaded into pubs if the right deal (to them) was on offer.
b) The more recent influx of white European drinkers was sadly much too late for many pubs, as once they have closed, they have tended to be converted to other uses, and I don't know of any that have later re-converted back to a pub. So you again have drinkers back in a given area, but they have to make other arrangements for their drinking unless and until someone takes a punt that there is enough demand to open up a hostelry.
But who suggested otherwise? The points are so obvious as to be banal. Anyway, there are those whose job it is to analyse trends and habits in the minutest detail and it is a whole host of factors. You may find some very interesting reading, for example, here: store.mintel.com/beer-uk-december-2013'"
All good points, however Lord Hodgson is being berated for stating that, "in areas of Nottingham, Leicester, Manchester, Leeds and Birmingham the increase in the Muslim population who don't drink leads to many pub closures", a statement which is entirely true, given he hasn't even named this as the sole reason, but cites other influences. I would also add the smoking ban and simply the ever-growing cost of a pint, but a huge increase in a non-drinking population in an area will clearly be a significant factor.
While indeed the UK population has grown, break that down to the small catchment area of a local pub and the numbers become insignificant. I'd also wager that many pub closures are in areas similar to those close to me - old working class industrial areas now massively dominated by immigrant, mostly Muslim, populations. And yes, the population that has moved away no doubt now drink elsewhere - probably one of the soulless pub chains that seem to be the only pubs opening these days, or at home (or perhaps they have families and don't frequent pubs as often, or have died) - but that doesn't change the key fact: they have been replaced by a non-drinking population and their old local pubs have gone.
It's a simple equation: overwhelm an area with a population that doesn't drink (publicly), and the local pubs will see a decline in business. Similarly, many churches in areas dominated by Muslim communities have closed. If an area was suddenly dominated by Hindus I expect a fried chicken joint would see a decline in business.
I don't really see what the issue is - actually I do, it's knee-jerk media looking for a story. In reality, anyone choosing to 'take offence' really is scraping the barrel, yet there they are...and predictably they've rolled out quotes from "leaders of Britain's Muslim community"...
Quote Ferocious AardvarkIndeed they do. And much more than I'd venture most people think. But you wouldn't I take it suggest that the additional sales of alcohol to muslims is anything other than a statistically insignificant percentage? You've raised an interesting point, though. Here's a couple of short articles on Muslims and alcohol, which will have quite a few eyebrow raising snippets for most people.
[urlhttp://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Alcohol_and_Drugs#Pakistan[/url
[urlhttp://www.economist.com/node/21560543[/url
The stats are that between 2001 and 2011 alcohol consumption in the West increased by around 30%. In Muslim countries it increased by over 70% and that ain't all tourists.
However the fact is that no Muslim would openly admit to drinking, and even though alcohol is seemingly not at all prohibited, the position is that it may as well be, as the religious fundamentalists who are present everywhere have in recent times taken the position that a muslim must not drink alcohol, and whilst in private many may disagree, in public nobody is brave enough to open a debate about it. For these reasons, alcohol consumption in the UK by members of the muslim population isn't going to make any pub landlord rich.'"
I never said it would. Simply making an observation. I once discussed this with a Muslim friend who liked his beer - his reply as he supped his lager was, "yes, I'm a Muslim, but I'm a bad Muslim." Oddly, a Muslim waiter in Kalkan, Turkey said exactly the same thing a few years later, word-for-word. | |
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| You again make the mistake of pointing to "a huge increase in the ... population who don't drink". It is NOTHING to do with them. If the drinkers who'd previously lived in the pub's catchment area still did, then the addition of a million non-drinkers would make no difference. Of course, speaking in very broad terms, it was more a case of "replacement" of a mainly drinker population with a mainly non-drinker population. But as in this case the non-drinkers who come in don't affect the pub one way or the other, then if you are going to "blame" any section of society for the pub's ills, it is illogical to blame the incomers. They were never customers, and never will be. You would surely have to blame the ex-customers, for stopping giving their trade to the pub. Thus, to blame "increase in the Muslim population" is pointing the finger at them with absolutely no justification. If he had said "decrease in the drinker population" then that at least would be accurate and fair. Why didn't he?
I know people take offence at anything nowadays but I'm not interested in that game.
Quote a huge increase in the ... population who don't drink="Cronus" overwhelm an area with a population that doesn't drink (publicly), and the local pubs will see a decline in business. Similarly, many churches in areas dominated by Muslim communities have closed. '"
And there you go, doing the same reverse trick. Who exactly is doing the "overwhelming", in your view? If you want to be fair, then what you are actually referring to is NOT non-drinkers "overwhelming" an area. As I keep saying, it wouldn't matter if they did, if the pub's old customers were still there. What you seem to be repeatedly missing is that it ain't the people moving IN - it's the drinkers choosing (as is their right) to move OUT. I therefore think you use of the word "overwhelm" in this context is unnecessary and if anything a bit inflammatory. You aim at those coming in, yet leave entirely out of the argument the ones truly "responsble" for the pubs' decline, the ex-customers moving out.
Quote a huge increase in the ... population who don't drink="Cronus" I once discussed this with a Muslim friend who liked his beer - his reply as he supped his lager was, "yes, I'm a Muslim, but I'm a bad Muslim." Oddly, a Muslim waiter in Kalkan, Turkey said exactly the same thing a few years later, word-for-word. '"
Indeed, but you'd presumably agree that the hypothesis I outlined (that the prophets Mohammed and Jesus liked a drink) is one that it would be impossible for most muslims to argue or articulate in the climate of fear and paranoia that their more fundamentalist leading lights, who brook no dissent, have created across the world. | | | |
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| Quote Ferocious Aardvark="Ferocious Aardvark"You again make the mistake of pointing to "a huge increase in the ... population who don't drink". It is NOTHING to do with them. If the drinkers who'd previously lived in the pub's catchment area still did, then the addition of a million non-drinkers would make no difference. Of course, speaking in very broad terms, it was more a case of "replacement" of a mainly drinker population with a mainly non-drinker population. But as in this case the non-drinkers who come in don't affect the pub one way or the other, then if you are going to "blame" any section of society for the pub's ills, it is illogical to blame the incomers. They were never customers, and never will be. You would surely have to blame the ex-customers, for stopping giving their trade to the pub. Thus, to blame "increase in the Muslim population" is pointing the finger at them with absolutely no justification. If he had said "decrease in the drinker population" then that at least would be accurate and fair. Why didn't he?
I know people take offence at anything nowadays but I'm not interested in that game.
And there you go, doing the same reverse trick. Who exactly is doing the "overwhelming", in your view? If you want to be fair, then what you are actually referring to is NOT non-drinkers "overwhelming" an area. As I keep saying, it wouldn't matter if they did, if the pub's old customers were still there. What you seem to be repeatedly missing is that it ain't the people moving IN - it's the drinkers choosing (as is their right) to move OUT. I therefore think you use of the word "overwhelm" in this context is unnecessary and if anything a bit inflammatory. You aim at those coming in, yet leave entirely out of the argument the ones truly "responsble" for the pubs' decline, the ex-customers moving out.'"
Inflamatory? Really? Never had you had you down as that sort. I use the word simply because the population I'm talking about is overwhelmingly Muslim, and therefore non-drinking. I think given the scale of the demographic changes the word applies quite nicely.
You're making the mistake of thinking I'm 'blaming' anyone. I'm not, just stating facts. For some reason you feel blame needs to be appointed, and in your opinion this should be placed on the previous inhabitants. Fair enough, though I won't agree as I'm not interested in blame.
How's this: a massive shift in the demographics of some areas, namely the growth of a non-drinking population and decrease of the incumbent population, has contributed in part to a decline in pub revenues and ultimately the closure of many pubs. See, no blame, just how it is.
Quote Ferocious AardvarkIndeed, but you'd presumably agree that the hypothesis I outlined (that the prophets Mohammed and Jesus liked a drink) is one that it would be impossible for most muslims to argue or articulate in the climate of fear and paranoia that their more fundamentalist leading lights, who brook no dissent, have created across the world.'"
Well, yes. Interestingly, alcohol in Saudi Arabia was not banned due to religion, but because King Ibn's sons kept getting wasted and killing people, including the British Consulate. | | |
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Good pubs don't close, they thrive.
The only pubs that close are sh[ii[/itholes that would close, whoever moved into their catchment area
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| Quote bramleyrhino="bramleyrhino"If that picture is of the Cross Keys in Leeds (it's hard to tell), then that pub is now thriving and is probably one of the best pubs in the city centre. '"
Not sure it is - the windows look different.
Some good pubs in that part of town now - Cross Keys, Midnight Bell, Pour House.
You just need a full wallet for a night out in them ! | | | |
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| Quote vernon="vernon"Not sure it is - the windows look different.
Some good pubs in that part of town now - Cross Keys, Midnight Bell, Pour House.
You just need a full wallet for a night out in them !'"
No, definitely not the Cross Keys in Leeds.
The Southern end of Leeds City Centre is thriving for pubs/real ale bars at the moment. Over the past year, there are around 7/8 new ones in the Boar Lane/Mill Hill area alone, there's another one up near Cross Keys too that opened a couple of months ago, and a 'Brazilian Bar' over the canal from the Pour House.
As Cod'ead said, it's usually the bad pubs that close. | | |
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| Quote cod'ead="cod'ead"Good pubs don't close, they thrive.
The only pubs that close are sh[ii[/itholes that would close, whoever moved into their catchment area'"
Absolutely. If for instance a pub is serving ropey pints of John Smiths and Fosters and expecting nearly £3 in return they quite rightly deserve to go to the wall. The pub industry is thriving, it's only the dives that will tell you otherwise. | | |
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| Quote King Street Cat="King Street Cat"... The pub industry is thriving...'"
it's really not. On average, 31 pubs a week are going to the wall. Many for a quick buck to convert to housing, regardless of the stripping of a community asset, or conversion by rapacious supermarkets into stores. The decimation of British pubs has been going on for years, with government taxation policy, useless planning laws, and greedy pubcos at the forefront of pricing pubs and landlords out of business. It's a complicated situation and CAMRA has (and is) fighting a good battle to try to stabilise the decline and save many brilliant pubs. But to say the industry is "thriving" is, with respect, just nonsense. | | | |
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| Quote Ferocious Aardvark="Ferocious Aardvark"it's really not. On average, 31 pubs a week are going to the wall. Many for a quick buck to convert to housing, regardless of the stripping of a community asset, or conversion by rapacious supermarkets into stores.'"
On the other hand, and I'll use an example of The Queens on Burley Road, SOME dead pubs can be turned into useful community assets again long after they have been shunned as pubs by the local community (you can argue whether or not Tesco are worthy of the term "community asset" as a separate argument).
The Queens was an extremely busy pub 20/30 years ago, situated behind the YTV studios its clientele included the esteemed Richard Whiteley and most of the staff of the studios as well as the local working class community that surrounded it, and for that matter still does surround it.
Fast forward to ten years ago and its local clientele just don't support it so that on the last time I visited early on a Saturday evening on the way to a game at Elland Rd it was populated by a handful of local boozers with the boozers complexion to match and a couple of young kids running around the place.
Its now a Tesco Express and as I pass it frequently in an evening it looks to be very well supported - its a community asset again albeit you take its beer home to drink it. | | |
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Notice how the pubco's will blame anything and anyone but themselves, they increase the price of a paint by way more than the tax increase but it's all the governments fault, they create cavernous soulless places but its the fault of the smoking ban, they employ clueless managers who are only interested in the bottom line and its the economy.
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| Quote JerryChicken="JerryChicken"On the other hand, and I'll use an example of The Queens on Burley Road, SOME dead pubs can be turned into useful community assets again long after they have been shunned as pubs by the local community (you can argue whether or not Tesco are worthy of the term "community asset" as a separate argument).
The Queens was an extremely busy pub 20/30 years ago, situated behind the YTV studios its clientele included the esteemed Richard Whiteley and most of the staff of the studios as well as the local working class community that surrounded it, and for that matter still does surround it.
Fast forward to ten years ago and its local clientele just don't support it so that on the last time I visited early on a Saturday evening on the way to a game at Elland Rd it was populated by a handful of local boozers with the boozers complexion to match and a couple of young kids running around the place.
Its now a Tesco Express and as I pass it frequently in an evening it looks to be very well supported - its a community asset again albeit you take its beer home to drink it.'"
Yeah, right. The only reason Tesco will have taken over the pub is taking advantage of planning loopholes which mean they don't have the bother of full planning applications for a new store. There is NO REASON why they couldn't have opened their "community asset" nearby, next door even, leaving the pub alone. If you discount that they probably either wouldn't have been allowed to, or else it would have cost them, a load of time money and effort. I don't know of a Tesco store that serves as a social meeting or gathering place, but it could be the exception I suppose. And it is in no sense a "community asset" unless locals had nowhere else to shop. It may be a convenience for some but that hardly clears the bar, now does it? | | | |
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| Quote Ferocious Aardvark="Ferocious Aardvark"Yeah, right. The only reason Tesco will have taken over the pub is taking advantage of planning loopholes which mean they don't have the bother of full planning applications for a new store. There is NO REASON why they couldn't have opened their "community asset" nearby, next door even, leaving the pub alone. If you discount that they probably either wouldn't have been allowed to, or else it would have cost them, a load of time money and effort. I don't know of a Tesco store that serves as a social meeting or gathering place, but it could be the exception I suppose. And it is in no sense a "community asset" unless locals had nowhere else to shop. It may be a convenience for some but that hardly clears the bar, now does it?'"
So they opened a shop for commercial reasons, its probably what they do.
And is it a community asset ?
Well I'm sure you probably know the pub and the area it sits in, and while a lot of its drinking customers in the past were from the commercial businesses around it the main bulk were from the council estates behind it , the simple fact is that like a lot of pub businesses the drink at lunchtime and after work clientele is non-existent these days and the "locals" who live in the estates behind just didn't go in there, if you look along that whole stretch of Burley Road and Kirkstall Road you'll see a lot less than half of the pubs remaining that were there 10 years ago, they are just not regarded as an asset by the community despite the old fashioned rose tinted spectacle view of being a social gathering place for them and in this respect the old bag Thatcher was probably correct in that there is no such thing as society anymore (which makes her protege Cameron wrong in his view that there is).
So what do the community do when Tesco take over the premises - they use it to shop there in enough numbers so that Tesco think its worth keeping it open, and again if you know the area you'll know that there is no other similar facility within walking distance for that community - hence it becomes a valuable asset to them, more than the pub ever turned out to be - and the beer is cheaper. | | | |
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