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Quote: Sal Paradise "
One thing is certain the average standard of living across the world is much higher than it was 30 years ago - capitalism might have its issues but it has presided over the greatest improvement in living standards since man evolved.'"


This has been the era of globalisation, the apogee of capitalism: open markets across borders. The interesting thing about this is where the benefit has gone.

Developing countries have seen rapid growth in this period, especially China, India, south east asia, parts of south America. A lot of people in those countries have moved out of subsistence agriculture in to jobs (low-paid by Western standards) where they are now supplying Western consumers.

However, in Western countries, wages for those in the middle and lower middle of the distributions have flatlined. They are now facing competition from overseas labour - either through direct competition when they migrate to Western countries, or even if they don't, through competition with foreign workers through offshoring.

In Western countries there have been huge gains for those at the top end of the wealth distribution, while those in the middle and lower parts have struggled.

Hence the political rejection of capitalism and free markets: Trump, Brexit. Even the Conservative party now has rejected free-market capitalism. Their approach now would horrify Thatcher - rapid rises to minimum wage, wanting to be free from state aid controls so they can use taxpayers' money to subsidise struggling industries, capping energy prices. Northern rail and South Western look likely to be taken under public management.

Who is making the argument for free-market capitalism? The EU do, broadly, other than even there they are restrained by some interest groups (southern European farmers) and so have some protectionist policies.

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'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png

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Quote: Sal Paradise "Very interesting post

How do you measure/quantify the input of any person within an organisation and how is that rewarded? In the commercial world tends to be financial measures

Assuming we’re sticking with capitalism, i’d go with more progressive taxation vs what we have now rather than capping wages.

The distinction i’d make between Messi (and maybe Danilo, don’t know much about him), and a lot of CEOs, is that he’s walked a path that 1. You have to be exceptional to reach that destination and 2. Is almost equally open to everybody... well, men at least.

The question for me isn’t so much how you measure/quantify the value of work, but who does it. I do see a case for leaving it to an efficient market. CEO pay is likely the way it is in part because of the role CEOs have in determining it.

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Quote: sally cinnamon "This has been the era of globalisation, the apogee of capitalism

Are you saying the standard of living in the UK and Europe hasn't moved on in the last 30 years? Perhaps the benefits are not just how much you earn it is about how much things cost in comparison or what you get at no individual cost. Improvements in health care increase life expectancy and quality - perhaps some of the benefits have disappeared into drug development which costs billions. Infrastructure is better, we have better roads, we have new technology this all costs huge amounts of development money. Perhaps this is where the levelling off is really happening? Whether you earn minimum wage or millions - the M1 is the M1 - your internet is as good. The drugs you take for your heart condition are identical etc. This is where Capitalism really wins out.

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Quote: Mild Rover "Assuming we’re sticking with capitalism, i’d go with more progressive taxation vs what we have now rather than capping wages.

The distinction i’d make between Messi (and maybe Danilo, don’t know much about him), and a lot of CEOs, is that he’s walked a path that 1. You have to be exceptional to reach that destination and 2. Is almost equally open to everybody... well, men at least.

The question for me isn’t so much how you measure/quantify the value of work, but who does it. I do see a case for leaving it to an efficient market. CEO pay is likely the way it is in part because of the role CEOs have in determining it.'"


I think your point about Messi is true - if you are exceptional you will make it to the highest level no matter where you come from and there are plenty of examples of that.

CEO's don't start as CEO's someone appoints them and decides what they have to pay usually non-exec directors who understand the market and what they are looking for.

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'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png

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Quote: Sal Paradise "Are you saying the standard of living in the UK and Europe hasn't moved on in the last 30 years? Perhaps the benefits are not just how much you earn it is about how much things cost in comparison or what you get at no individual cost. Improvements in health care increase life expectancy and quality - perhaps some of the benefits have disappeared into drug development which costs billions. Infrastructure is better, we have better roads, we have new technology this all costs huge amounts of development money. Perhaps this is where the levelling off is really happening? Whether you earn minimum wage or millions - the M1 is the M1 - your internet is as good. The drugs you take for your heart condition are identical etc. This is where Capitalism really wins out.'"


This is probably a semantic point, but are you claiming roads, the internet and healthcare for capitalism?

If the future turns out to be a post-scarcity technological idyll (something like Iain M. Banks Culture with benevolent AIs rather than the Skynet version), then it'll all be moot because money won't matter. And if it goes the other way it'll be moot because our few dozen surviving descendants will be being hunted relentless 8-foot-tall cyborgs.

It is true that the relatively poor live better than the relatively rich of past decades/centuries, in many ways.

To be honest, I don't think much of this discussion is about capitalism vs something else. It is more whether our capitalist system is working as it should or is it distorted and inefficient? Obviously, inevitably, it is the latter to some extent - nobody expects perfection. But in some areas it feels like we're at the 'hang on a minute, WTF?' stage, and that is eliciting political re-alignments. Not all of them efficiently directed, imo, but a lot of people of had enough... of something or other.

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'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png

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Quote: Sal Paradise "I think your point about Messi is true - if you are exceptional you will make it to the highest level no matter where you come from and there are plenty of examples of that.'"


In some fields, I think that is much truer than others. The social and practical barriers to becoming a top footballer are low - it is about talent that can be assessed fairly simply. On the other hand, at the top level, like a lot of very, very highly paid work, the societal value seems pretty limited. The market may not make those sorts of judgements, but that doesn't mean we can't judge the market system as lacking, by human standards, for that.

What people are maybe concerned about more is that if you are unexceptional you can do very well just by coming from the right place - there are plenty of examples of that too. Equally, there's a lot of talent wasted because hard-working, gifted people can't overcome irrational barriers in the market.

Across society we want as many people as possible to contribute as much value as possible (and most people, by definition, are not exceptional). A problem I think we have is that too many aren't incentivized to give their best, because they've worked out there's not much point other than altruism, and there's a smaller number for whom there is no need because their success is baked in.

Quote: Sal Paradise "CEO's don't start as CEO's someone appoints them and decides what they have to pay usually non-exec directors who understand the market and what they are looking for.'"


Yeah, their mate, and the favour will no doubt be reciprocated. icon_wink.gif

Look, I think this comes down to a difference in perception. You think these guys are the best of the best, because otherwise they wouldn't be at the top, so QED. I think a fair proportion of them are... mediocrities who have benefited from a broken system, would be harsh... but nothing special, and easily interchangeable with other competent people. There's the odd visionary I'm sure, there's much more opacity than with football. You can see in real-time why a football team is successful and who is contributing what. And under-performing players are dropped.

The oversight of executive pay by non-executive directors and large shareholders, doesn't seem to work to me, from the little I've seen and read. And, intuitively, it doesn't seem like it should.

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Quote: Mild Rover "In some fields, I think that is much truer than others. The social and practical barriers to becoming a top footballer are low - it is about talent that can be assessed fairly simply. On the other hand, at the top level, like a lot of very, very highly paid work, the societal value seems pretty limited. The market may not make those sorts of judgements, but that doesn't mean we can't judge the market system as lacking, by human standards, for that.

What people are maybe concerned about more is that if you are unexceptional you can do very well just by coming from the right place - there are plenty of examples of that too. Equally, there's a lot of talent wasted because hard-working, gifted people can't overcome irrational barriers in the market.

Across society we want as many people as possible to contribute as much value as possible (and most people, by definition, are not exceptional). A problem I think we have is that too many aren't incentivized to give their best, because they've worked out there's not much point other than altruism, and there's a smaller number for whom there is no need because their success is baked in.

Yeah, their mate, and the favour will no doubt be reciprocated.
I agree with much of your first point - we don't invest and challenge our people - the ridiculous idea that someone shouldn't progress because they are too valuable in their current role happens all the time. We prefer someone else to do the hard lifting for us and we get the finished article - especially for overseas. It is no wonder we don't get the best out of our people. Staff turnover is so expensive.

Whilst I would agree with you will always get some CEO's that are less than brilliant that shouldn't hold be the remunerations of those that are - the sky should be limit on their earnings potential. A good CEO is cheap - like a good sales person.

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'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png

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Quote: Sal Paradise "
Whilst I would agree with you will always get some CEO's that are less than brilliant that shouldn't hold be the remunerations of those that are - the sky should be limit on their earnings potential. A good CEO is cheap - like a good sales person.'"


I broadly agree. And even when I talk about more progressive taxation, I'm not advocating punitive, self-defeating levels.

The key thing is that the market is as open as possible to talent.

And then, a point you've raised a couple of times, how is 'good' judged? Share price seems logical, because the shareholders are the owners and it is easily measured. But then what is a sensible time frame? In some ways, it'd be most just to judge executives over periods longer than some of their tenures, but that isn't practical. So maybe a buy-back to immediately boost the share price appeals more than medium-term investment that would be more valuable. Or maybe the shareholders themselves don't plan on sticking around that long and would prefer the quicker buck.

If we could give an AI a list of priorities for delivering corporate success, I wonder how much they would differ from those of a human CEO?

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Quote: Mild Rover "I broadly agree. And even when I talk about more progressive taxation, I'm not advocating punitive, self-defeating levels.

The key thing is that the market is as open as possible to talent.

And then, a point you've raised a couple of times, how is 'good' judged? Share price seems logical, because the shareholders are the owners and it is easily measured. But then what is a sensible time frame? In some ways, it'd be most just to judge executives over periods longer than some of their tenures, but that isn't practical. So maybe a buy-back to immediately boost the share price appeals more than medium-term investment that would be more valuable. Or maybe the shareholders themselves don't plan on sticking around that long and would prefer the quicker buck.

If we could give an AI a list of priorities for delivering corporate success, I wonder how much they would differ from those of a human CEO?'"


Given that the AI is programmed by humans and takes human inputs I would suggest quite similar. For me and my business people are what make the difference and those hundreds of daily human interactions are what separate top businesses from average ones. This is even more key the higher up the ladder you go.

If we assume the share price is a predictor of future growth then I would agree but there are many high quality CEO's working in unfashionable industries that don't get the interest of say tech firms. For me its the robustness of the business to withstand set backs, will its cashflows enable it keep going when the market might go against it? Does the business have an appropriate structure, is it well invested etc there are many ways you can judge the performance of a CEO.

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'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png

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Quote: Sal Paradise "Given that the AI is programmed by humans and takes human inputs I would suggest quite similar. For me and my business people are what make the difference and those hundreds of daily human interactions are what separate top businesses from average ones. This is even more key the higher up the ladder you go.

If we assume the share price is a predictor of future growth then I would agree but there are many high quality CEO's working in unfashionable industries that don't get the interest of say tech firms. For me its the robustness of the business to withstand set backs, will its cashflows enable it keep going when the market might go against it? Does the business have an appropriate structure, is it well invested etc there are many ways you can judge the performance of a CEO.'"


I don’t mean a programmable robot, but a genuine (currently hypothetical) sentient AI, free from human desires - including the desire for personal status and remuneration.

Your priorities - positive human interactions, robustness, appropriately structured - all seem nice and sensible. What is interesting to me is what is missing from the list that often seem to be among the non-brochure/prospectus version of corporate priorities.

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Quote: Mild Rover "I don’t mean a programmable robot, but a genuine (currently hypothetical) sentient AI, free from human desires - including the desire for personal status and remuneration.

Your priorities - positive human interactions, robustness, appropriately structured - all seem nice and sensible. What is interesting to me is what is missing from the list that often seem to be among the non-brochure/prospectus version of corporate priorities.'"

so, no sense of self, achievement, desire, ambition?

a very sterile world, and not really an example of evolution. But then evolution is subjective.

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'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png

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Quote: IR80 "so, no sense of self, achievement, desire, ambition?

a very sterile world, and not really an example of evolution. But then evolution is subjective.'"


You don't think selflessness and equanimity are useful qualities for optimal performance of this role?

The danger, I reckon, is when somebody tells it save the environment and it starts exterminating us.

Hopefully it'll be smart enough to read between the lines, and investor relations would still know to put an optimistic spin on information and it'll ensure that HR is aware that it is there to protect the company first and employees second.

I'm thinking of something like the Minds in the Culture series of novels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture

While made-up, they are interesting and entertaining.

Does a post-scarcity future, managed by hyperintelligent AIs, appeal hypothetically? Or would the lack of economic competition and status make it feel sterile, d'you reckon?
Quote: IR80 "so, no sense of self, achievement, desire, ambition?

a very sterile world, and not really an example of evolution. But then evolution is subjective.'"


You don't think selflessness and equanimity are useful qualities for optimal performance of this role?

The danger, I reckon, is when somebody tells it save the environment and it starts exterminating us.

Hopefully it'll be smart enough to read between the lines, and investor relations would still know to put an optimistic spin on information and it'll ensure that HR is aware that it is there to protect the company first and employees second.

I'm thinking of something like the Minds in the Culture series of novels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture

While made-up, they are interesting and entertaining.

Does a post-scarcity future, managed by hyperintelligent AIs, appeal hypothetically? Or would the lack of economic competition and status make it feel sterile, d'you reckon?


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Quote: Mild Rover "You don't think selflessness and equanimity are useful qualities for optimal performance of this role?

The danger, I reckon, is when somebody tells it save the environment and it starts exterminating us.

Hopefully it'll be smart enough to read between the lines, and investor relations would still know to put an optimistic spin on information and it'll ensure that HR is aware that it is there to protect the company first and employees second.

I'm thinking of something like the Minds in the Culture series of novels.

AI pipe dreams and fantasy, not a future we are likely to see, nor one I want.

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'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png

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Quote: IR80 "AI pipe dreams and fantasy, not a future we are likely to see, nor one I want.'"


What sort of future do you envision and want?

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Quote: Mild Rover "What sort of future do you envision and want?'"

One where survival of the fittest prevails, the best person for a job doing the job, pretty much as things are now.

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 Sat 2nd Nov
     Womens Internationals 2024-R2
12:00
ENGLAND W
v
WALES W
     Mens Internationals 2024-R3
14:30
England M
v
Samoa M
ALL SCORES PROVIDED BY RLFANS.COM (SETTINGS)
Matches on TV
Fri 4th Oct
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Warrington
Sat 5th Oct
SL
17:30
Wigan-Leigh
Sun 6th Oct
L1
15:00
Keighley-Hunslet
WSL2024
16:30
York V-St.HelensW
NRL
09:30
Melbourne-Penrith
Sun 27th Oct
MINT2024
14:30
England M-Samoa M
Sat 2nd Nov
MINT2024
14:30
England M-Samoa M
Sun 29th Sep
L1 25 Rochdale26-46Hunslet
CH 28 Barrow24-26Widnes
CH 28 Bradford50-0Swinton
CH 28 Dewsbury28-8Sheffield
CH 28 Wakefield72-6Doncaster
CH 28 Whitehaven23-20Halifax
CH 28 York16-6Featherstone
Sat 28th Sep
CH 28 Toulouse64-16Batley
SL 28 Warrington23-22St.Helens
NRL 30 Penrith26-6Cronulla
Fri 27th Sep
SL 28 Salford6-14Leigh
NRL 30 Melbourne48-18Sydney
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 27 721 336 385 44
Warrington 28 761 341 420 42
Hull KR 27 719 327 392 42
Leigh 28 580 404 176 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 26 1010 262 748 50
Toulouse 25 744 368 376 35
Bradford 26 678 387 291 34
York 27 655 469 186 30
Widnes 26 551 475 76 29
Featherstone 26 622 500 122 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Swinton 27 474 670 -196 18
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
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