FORUMS > The Sin Bin > Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) |
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| Seems a longtime ago but the simple question on the referendum ballot paper was, do you want to remain in the European or leave the European Union. A majority voted to leave the European Union. The treachery of some members of parliament is staggering. They then voted by a large majority to trigger article 50 ,which was the mechanism to leave the EU. Since then it looks like many if them under pressure from the establishment have back tracked.
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| Quote: Backwoodsman "Seems a longtime ago but the simple question on the referendum ballot paper was, do you want to remain in the European or leave the European Union. A majority voted to leave the European Union. The treachery of some members of parliament is staggering. They then voted by a large majority to trigger article 50 ,which was the mechanism to leave the EU. Since then it looks like many if them under pressure from the establishment have back tracked.'"
You cant blemae them when Teresa May, rather than listen to ANYONE chose to go it alone and secured a deal that only she is happy with.
Hell, she cant even muster agreement within the cabinet that SHE chose and she just wont accept that it's a crap deal.
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| Quote: Cronus "And here we have the perfect example of why Brexit is such a dog to get through.
You are utterly convinced in your views of May's deal. You think it's a 'hard' Brexit. You think the 'red lines' are a problem. That's your view. It's not necessarily wrong, however stating it as fact is erroneous.
I don't agree. I think the deal is a 'reasonable' Brexit and will do a job. I think the red lines are exactly what we voted for
Your absolutely right imo, Ive said before that ive not read the detail of Mays deal if someone has then please enlighten me why its so bad I just can't see it. If someone has and can see a massive issue then I would love to know apart from the backstop issue.
Cameron spend over £9 million of tax payers money sending that leaflet to all households (legally I know) giving the Government position as to why we should stay in the EU: The country still voted to leave
We were told time and time again the we would have to leave the customs union and the single market if we leave because part of that would be freedom of movement. The country still voted to leave
The then chancellor said that if we voted to leave the EU, he would have to do an emergency budget. Taxes would have to rise and more spending cuts (the absolutely last thing use needed) Yet, the country still voted to leave.
Yet the people who we voted in on all sides are still trying to fudge it. Some want a soft Norway style which would mean us agreeing to freedom of movement, others want us to just leave with no deal at all. Is mays deal not somewhere in-between which we can all agree to.
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| Quote: POSTL " Snip.The country still voted to leave'"
I guess you could balance that with 40 years of xenophobia, racism, lies and hatred from the majority of the MSM.
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| Quote: tigertot "I guess you could balance that with 40 years of xenophobia, racism, lies and hatred from the majority of the MSM.'"
Who's the MSM, I assume its something to do with the Brexit topic ?
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| Mainstream media
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| Listened to David Starkey on the radio .He is an historian and expert on the British parliament . He outlined the fact that the vote from the British people is a mandate or instruction to act out the democratic vote. To ignore that creates a constitutional crisis. Leaving the EU may or may not be a disaster and Teresa May has been a disaster, but the harsh fact remains a majority vote took place and one side won. I have respect for some MPS who are trying to push a bill through parliament to revoke article 50 ,that’s the honest solution. But the majority of the Labour Party will oppose anything in order to bring down the government. It would be ironic if due to intransigence by parliament resulted in us leaving without a deal.
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| Quote: Backwoodsman "But the majority of the Labour Party will oppose anything in order to bring down the government. It would be ironic if due to intransigence by parliament resulted in us leaving without a deal.'"
I'm not sure it is the majority. The parliamentary labour party are presently led by its socialist faction at the moment, who I agree, are focused on getting the Conservatives out of office at all costs. But much of the rank and file are centre-left and their priorities are different. I make no comment on the relative merits of the two types.
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| Quote: POSTL "Who's the MSM, I assume its something to do with the Brexit topic ?'"
It's who loony lefties like to blame for everything. Basically it's any media they don't agree with 100%.
They conveniently ignore the experiences of people in their day to day lives playing a huge part in shaping their views.
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| Quote: Pumpetypump "I'm not sure it is the majority. The parliamentary labour party are presently led by its socialist faction at the moment but much of the rank and file are centre-left. I make no comment on the relative merits of the two types.'"
True, and watching some of the rank and file trot out the party line is often embarrassing. You can see even they don't believe it.
It's also been interesting watching some like that media parasite Lisa Nandy changing her line once she realised her Leave constituents were furious at her for seeking to obstruct Brexit, despite her representing a 64% leave constituency.
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| Quote: Cronus "It's who loony lefties like to blame for everything. Basically it's any media they don't agree with 100%.
They conveniently ignore the experiences of people in their day to day lives playing a huge part in shaping their views.'"
I'm not a lefty (although the loony is open to debate), but the vast majority of newspaper sales and associated website hits will be to the Daily Mail and Sun. So it is legitimate to say that anti EU and pro-Brexit rhetoric was far more widely available to the masses than remain. The available reach of the anti-EU message surely can't be denied.
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| Quote: Cronus "True, and watching some of the rank and file trot out the party line is often embarrassing.'"
It is uncomfortable I agree, but I give them some credit for having even the pretense of an agreed vision for Brexit (albeit a really rather sketchy and dreadful one). The Tories meanwhile are in open civil war and have no coherent single voice whatsoever.
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| Quote: Cronus "And here we have the perfect example of why Brexit is such a dog to get through.
You are utterly convinced in your views of May's deal. You think it's a 'hard' Brexit. You think the 'red lines' are a problem. That's your view. It's not necessarily wrong, however stating it as fact is erroneous.
I don't agree. I think the deal is a 'reasonable' Brexit and will do a job. I think the red lines are exactly what we voted for
I broadly agree with you about the best outcome now on the table. This was always going to be a dog to get through, as you say. While I'm not a huge fan of May's deal, it is the least risky and distasteful way forward at this point, imo. In its favourtoday. They say 'a week is long time in politics', and while a lot has to change, if one domino falls... you never know.
The whole threat of self-immolation to get the EU to 'blink', I read completely differently. It had little-to-no value initially, the EU haven't blinked (both imo, of course), and at this point what more would we ask for anyway? The only request we're allowed now is for a longer extension, and that'd be to go in a defined direction more palatable to them so would hardly be 'blinking'.
If May's deal is voted down again, our options are no deal on the 12th of April or a request for an extension based on a new position that they approve of. With respect, I think you so expect them to blink that you're seeing things that aren't there. We, the UK, are free to choose, but only from those three options. At this stage, narrower options help us - Thank EU.
Also, I'm a bit tired of the threat of hard right being used to guide us anywhere and force the rest of us to blink. Cuddling up to nutters doesn't seem to be working for May, and I think there's a lesson there. If we have to base our politics from here on, on managing bigoted and fascistic tendencies from the fringes then we're doomed anyway.
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| Quote: Cronus "It's who loony lefties like to blame for everything. Basically it's any media they don't agree with 100%.
They conveniently ignore the experiences of people in their day to day lives playing a huge part in shaping their views.'"
And it's right wing nutjobs who pretend it isn't major factor. Well the brighter ones pretend, the average Mail, Express, Sun, Star reader is too thick or myopic to question anything.
Most Brexiteer's views on the EU, forriners & law is based on ignorance not experience. You are perhaps the only exception to that rule on here. The others are just simplistic, one-dimensional nutjobs.
I listened to David Starkey. I watched Turkey's voting for Christmas.
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| Quote: Pumpetypump "Mainstream media'"
Thank You
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