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Quote: Dead Man Walking "We're all in it together was the phrase a few years ago from Osborne ( IIRC ) but it's a big, fat lie.'"


He managed to slip it in to his speech yesterday

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Quote: cod'ead "He managed to slip it in to his speech yesterday'"

Well, we all have a £4m trust fund like his don't we?

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Quote: DaveO "The minimum wage graph is wrong and also misleading anyway.

At today's exchange rates $10.00
If you re-read it you'll see that it's talking about daily unemployment benefits not hourly minimum wage. Its also in PPP dollars not US dollars so the exchange rate is irrelevant.

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Quote: El Barbudo "I don't disagree, the enrichment of his class is the aim and he knows (if he paid attention in the economics lectures) that unemployment, underemployment and inequality are necessary to that task. and he must also know that the widening gap of inequality leads to a stagnant economy.
His party is not called Conservative for nothing, they regard the money in the economy as theirs by right and they are going to damn well conserve it.

The very fact that he (apparently deliberately) is not growing the economy tells us what?

IMHO it tells us that he is more concerned about "his" economy (i.e. the economy that benefits his own small section of society) than he is about the National economy and the well-being of the Nation as a whole.'"


No. It tells us he does not control our economy. Or at least not in the same way the Disraeli government controlled the economy a century or so ago.

Britain is a client state. Not like Nigeria or Jamaica but our relationship to the United States bears a striking resemblance to the one which existed between the Greek territories and the Roman Empire.

Yes, we have a certain degree of freedom to allocate funding. But we DO NOT have the freedom to deviate in any substantial way from the neo-liberal economic framework, nationalise or subsidize industries, plough huge sums into public spending, raise trade tarriffs etc. without attracting the ire of Washington.

The last European nation which attempted to exercise such freedom was Yugoslavia. This government, like every government within the EU (and beyond), is only too aware of this fact. Which is why, in countries like Greece and Cyprus, they have steadfastly refused to bow to public pressure (to the point where they have rendered themselves unelectable for a century) and kick out the IMF. Crippling debt is one thing. Being crippled by the mob boss and his squadron of B2 stealth bombers is something else entirely.

I should clarify the above by saying whilst the US currently sets the global economic agenda (and punishes transgressors) - it increasingly does so in the service of big business. Which means all but the top 1% of Americans are being squeezed much in the same way we are. Of course, Obama isn't in the same position as Cameron. But he takes his orders nontheless - and the power of his office diminishes as each new incumbent arrives.

The truth is we are now in the penultimate stages of a radical overhaul of the global economy (created in response to the threat of democratic reform at the end of the sixties) which will render the traditional concepts of nation state, sovereign rights etc., redundant in all but name. Whilst the Guardianistas and such congratulated themselves on their perspicacity big business pulled off a strategic blitzkrieg - effectively neutering the entire democratic process - on a global scale. From now on public policy will increasingly be a function of trans-national capital. If, by chance, we do stir ourselves to protest - what actions can our elected representatives take when exceeding their margin for free action attracts greater retribution? And should we "protest" in those very ways which clawed from the cold dead hand of business an end to slavery, child labour, the creation of state benefits etc. - "our" government will be only too quick to make use of the millions we are currently investing in "counter-terror", "urban pacification" - not to mention the very same forms of electronic surveillance we are constantly assured are in our best interests.

The "End of History" indeed.

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Rollerball was not that far fetched then it would appear!

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Quote: Leaguefan "Rollerball was not that far fetched then it would appear!'"

Or 1984, written as a warning but looking more like a prediction.

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Quote: El Barbudo "Or 1984, written as a warning but looking more like a prediction.'"


Since Blair, politicians in power seem to view it as an instruction manual

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Last weekend I helped Emma clear her late grandmother's house. During the clearance, I managed to acquire a framed print of George Cruikshank's "Tremendous Sacrifice". Good to see that buggerall has changed since 1846.



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Quote: El Barbudo "I don't disagree, the enrichment of his class is the aim and he knows (if he paid attention in the economics lectures) that unemployment, underemployment and inequality are necessary to that task. and he must also know that the widening gap of inequality leads to a stagnant economy.
His party is not called Conservative for nothing, they regard the money in the economy as theirs by right and they are going to damn well conserve it.

The very fact that he (apparently deliberately) is not growing the economy tells us what?
IMHO it tells us that he is more concerned about "his" economy (i.e. the economy that benefits his own small section of society) than he is about the National economy and the well-being of the Nation as a whole.

Back in the days of supposed "full employment" of the 50's, 60's and 70's, people were more difficult to subdue and pay rises were difficult to control ... inflation became the biggest bugbear for successive governments.
Business was desperate to take control and wanted a government that would allow capital to rule, would allow unemployment to rise and would make unemployment even harder to endure, thereby making the working population just glad to have a job.
In 1979, they got that government and we now see the continuation of that neolib drive.
To this government, people are merely machines to use and discard and never mind the human cost.

Yet still the myth of the classless society persists.

We are pretty much back in the 20's and 30's and heading rapidly for the 1800's.'"


What a huge over reaction - when we see 10 year olds working in factories we will back in the 1800's. One of the big issues in the 50-70s was the huge size of the public sector and the power of the trade unions in those industries. Thankfully both of these factors are nowhere near as disruptive as they were.

This government is the poorest we have had in my lifetime but to compare employment conditions or job retention to the likes of the 20/30s and the general strike is simply not credible.

Times are very hard and Capitalism is at a cross roads - not sure the levels of debt that almost everyone has is sustainable long term. Unfortunately it is the only game in town, everything else has spectacularly failed to deliver anything close to what Capitalsim offers.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "What a huge over reaction - when we see 10 year olds working in factories we will back in the 1800's. One of the big issues in the 50-70s was the huge size of the public sector and the power of the trade unions in those industries. Thankfully both of these factors are nowhere near as disruptive as they were.

This government is the poorest we have had in my lifetime but to compare employment conditions or job retention to the likes of the 20/30s and the general strike is simply not credible.

Times are very hard and Capitalism is at a cross roads - not sure the levels of debt that almost everyone has is sustainable long term. Unfortunately it is the only game in town, everything else has spectacularly failed to deliver anything close to what Capitalsim offers.'"


Capitalism didn't deliver the 5-day week. Capitalism didn't put an end to child labour. Capitalism didn't bestow upon workers health and safety laws. Capitalism didn't offer us universal healthcare or welfare benefits. Capitalism certainly didn't legislate against environmental pollution.

The truth is it was the [idemocratic struggle[/i AGAINST [iCapitalism[/i which brought about the above. And it was a long and bitter fight.

Forget about places such as the US or the richer EU countries where Democracy has placed constraints on the rampant consumption of big business. Let's look at the nations where Capitalism is unfettered and functions with ruthless efficiency. Let's look at capitalist Nigeria, or capitalist Indonesia, or capitalist El Salvador. Precisely WHAT has Capitalism "offered" those countries?

Oh, and in case you haven't realised: most of the world is capitalist. And most of the world is poor.

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Quote: Mugwump "Capitalism didn't deliver the 5-day week. Capitalism didn't put an end to child labour. Capitalism didn't bestow upon workers health and safety laws. Capitalism didn't offer us universal healthcare or welfare benefits. Capitalism certainly didn't legislate against environmental pollution.

The truth is it was the [idemocratic struggle[/i AGAINST [iCapitalism[/i which brought about the above. And it was a long and bitter fight.

Forget about places such as the US or the richer EU countries where Democracy has placed constraints on the rampant consumption of big business. Let's look at the nations where Capitalism is unfettered and functions with ruthless efficiency. Let's look at capitalist Nigeria, or capitalist Indonesia, or capitalist El Salvador. Precisely WHAT has Capitalism "offered" those countries?

Oh, and in case you haven't realised

What is the alternative - socialism has been abandoned as simply unworkable, communism the same even China has seen huge growth since adopting a capitalist approach.

Capitalism has also brought about huge increases in living standards and massive developments in areas such has healthcare and drug development. Most of the world isn't poor compared to fifty years ago and certainly not compared to 200 years ago. Increased standards of living enable individuals to move up Maslow's scale which enhances democracy, would you say we have a more democratic society since the move from feudalism to capitalism?

Again I ask what is the alternative to capitalism as a means of wealth generation?

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Quote: Sal Paradise "What is the alternative - socialism has been abandoned as simply unworkable, communism the same even China has seen huge growth since adopting a capitalist approach.

Capitalism has also brought about huge increases in living standards and massive developments in areas such has healthcare and drug development. Most of the world isn't poor compared to fifty years ago and certainly not compared to 200 years ago. Increased standards of living enable individuals to move up Maslow's scale which enhances democracy, would you say we have a more democratic society since the move from feudalism to capitalism?

Again I ask what is the alternative to capitalism as a means of wealth generation?'"


There isn't one of course and there aren't too many who would argue against it as a means of wealth generation.

However the one single duty of any government of any colour should be to distribute tax income around its populace in an equitable manner so that the extremities of wealth and poverty are at least evened out to as much an extent as possible during any given government lifespan.

The sight of a government minister on TV this morning failing to criticise the 4000% headline interest rates charged by payday loan companies left a very bad taste int he mouth even after the interviewer suggested that the only reason they won't criticise is because the government is "in cahoots" with the payday lenders - a statement which was vigorously denied by the minister - the follow-up question of "Could you name the payday lenders who contribute to your party coffers then ?" was never asked unfortunately.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "....Again I ask what is the alternative to capitalism as a means of wealth generation?'"

OK, it's a bit boring but I'll repeat what I have I have said many times ... capitalism is like fire or water, it's a great servant but a bad master.

Capitalism is a facilitator, not a fault-free god, it has to be free enough to work but has to be restrained to prevent immense harm.

When you free it up too much you end up with ..
a) Employees underpaid, overworked, commoditised and insecure, with worker set against worker, where capital gets the rewards and labour shoulders the burden ... until ...
b) Huge financial crises which affect everyone, not just the main protagonists ... indeed the protagonists will likely walk away untouched by it all, to spend more time with their money and waiting until the mugs allow them to do it all over again.

Blair and Brown, in thrall to the tax revenues coming in from it, failed to regulate the financial sector.
The conservatives, in opposition, wailed that there was too much regulation.

Now we have the coalition tinkering at the edges and not regulating, indeed Cameron is using the possibility of "relaxing" employment law as a gobbet of meaty sustenance for his ever-greedy and squawking backbench nestlings.

As Mugump said, capitalism did NOT deliver to the populace, it was legislation that did that ... and Cameron/Osborne are clearly not in favour of keeping those restraints as their party donors (in line with party ethos) are keen to get back to the golden days of situation a) above.

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Ah, Sal – good to see you back.

Perhaps you can provide straight answers to the questions you were ducking a few days ago.

rlYou'll find the most recent episode here.rl

Or is this going to be another example of pooh-poohing other comments, but without ever offering even a semblance of an alternative and never (see above) being prepared to even admit that there are major problems?

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Quote: Sal Paradise "What a huge over reaction - when we see 10 year olds working in factories we will back in the 1800's...'"

Quote: Sal Paradise "...even China has seen huge growth since adopting a capitalist approach...'"


Good that you mention China's adoption of the capitalist approach.
China won't say how many children are working in its industries and there have been some high-profile revelations (e.g. Apple recently) of Chinese goods sold in the West.
Capitalism doesn't have legislation against child labour built into it, and a number of Western companies have only done anything about it when their brand looked like being tarnished.
The examples we have seen should tell us that business just won't ask the questions if the price is right, only when they stand to lose in some way will that happen.

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20:00
Hull FC
v
Castleford
20:00
Hull KR
v
Catalans
 Sat 14th Jun 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R13
15:00
Huddersfield
v
Wigan
17:30
Leeds
v
Warrington
ALL SCORES PROVIDED BY RLFANS.COM (SETTINGS)
Matches on TV
Thu 13th Feb
SL
20:00
Wigan-Leigh
Fri 14th Feb
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Castleford
SL
20:00
Catalans-Hull FC
Sat 15th Feb
SL
15:00
Leeds-Wakefield
SL
17:30
St.Helens-Salford
Sun 16th Feb
SL
15:00
Huddersfield-Warrington
Thu 20th Feb
SL
20:00
Wakefield-Hull KR
Fri 21st Feb
SL
20:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Wigan
Sat 22nd Feb
SL
15:00
Salford-Leeds
SL
20:00
Castleford-St.Helens
Sun 23rd Feb
SL
14:30
Leigh-Huddersfield
Thu 6th Mar
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Leigh
Fri 7th Mar
SL
20:00
Castleford-Salford
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Hull KR
Sat 8th Mar
SL
17:30
Catalans-Leeds
Sun 9th Mar
SL
17:30
Warrington-Wakefield
SL
17:30
Wigan-Huddersfield
Thu 20th Mar
SL
20:00
Salford-Huddersfield
Fri 21st Mar
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Warrington
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
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