No, you are right, hence my comment about them using the "traditional" methods of getting out there and just playing or singing to get recognised.

Ultimately they all want wealth and "fame" rather than an amateur or semi-professional income and the love of playing and singing music, Matt Cardle from last year for instance was doing the rounds fronting bands and was probably pocketing some tax-free cash most weekends (and then spending it in music shops), ultimately he wanted more, ultimately he'll go back to the pub circuit soon and then he'll probably admit that churning out chart music wasn't really what he wanted to do anyway.

Personally I would prefer "serious" music programmes like Jules Hollands output to be given more prominence on TV with a mandate to introduce at least two unknown bands per week mixed in with the regular professionals - the fact that at least three of the judges (and probably all of the producers) on the X Factor panel last night didn't understand the description of the theme "rock music" told the whole story to me.

Kitty is better than a bottom two place and the cruise ship singer deserved to go. Having said that the skanky one should go. It irritates me how he scratches his head as if it is full of lice. And if his private life is owt to go by he should be called frankie cock oozer

I would also prefer serious music programmes however I doubt that would produce bags of money for people like Cowell.
I remember the Housemartins saying they were not in it for the money, then Heaton formed The Beautiful South, and Norman Cook as we know went his own way, tbf though they did not initially do mainstream. I think it is a fine line because if the artist is good enough they will attract fame and fortune but what annoys me is they seem to sell their souls to mainstream pop, there are markets for blues, soul etc is it greed by the artist or the record company's or both..I think I am getting old because all I see on MTV is boobs hanging out and the same monotonous sounds

At the age of 55 I am fortunate enough to have been weaned on the sounds of the 60s, on Motown, Stax, The Beatles, The Stones, The Who, my dad was a club singer who's era was the 40's and 50's, of Sinatra, Bennett, etc, the radio was never off in our house, his music, our music, when I was 15 the year was 1971 and the music charts were a cornucopia of British Prog Rock, American Soul, British Rock, Glam Rock and the Motown and Stax that we had been prevented from listening to in the 60s thanks to import restrictions and tarriffs, in that year my dads era was 30 years behind us and seemed like a million miles hence from what was going on in a 15 year olds world.

Fast forward to today and I've just spent this evening painting away to Quadrophenia and an assortment of Stones output from the 60s and 70s, I'm still listening to that music, loud, as loud as the headphones will allow and tonight my 23 year old daughter came in and asked me to turn my music down - my dad used to tell me to do that 30 years ago, I should be stone deaf by now instead of just partly.

The main point is that my two daughters will happily listen to "my" music in the car and despite me complaining constantly I will listen to most of the stuff they like, there are some very talented singers and songwriters out there at the moment, I use Spotify to follow a lot of new released material and there is a lot of good young talent that has been "discovered" via the traditional route of working hard at their art and having some editorial control over it by writing their own material.

Occasionally X Factor will give them a platform, but more often than not they churn out another succession of what blokes of my age (I'm looking at you Walsh) think their own kids want to listen to and now, after ten to fifteen years of the conveyor belt running we can all see right through it and most of the 20 year olds that I speak to can too, the likes of Cowell and Walsh have done their best to stifle the chart market into accepting their view of what "Kids" want and this year at least it seems to be business as usual.

I would like some serious music programmes but I think radio is the medium for that, on TV they would never be as popular as X factor. The reason X factor is popular is because it is an entertainment show and as such has licence to do things just to keep viewer figures high like their 'twists' and putting comedy acts through which a serious music programme couldn't do. A serious music programme would attract serious music fans but wouldn't capture the attention of any old jo bloggs who wants some lighthearted Saturday night entertainment, which is what X factor is.

Now on the Housemartins reference, they are one of my favourite all time bands. I don't think you could accuse them of breaking up for the money, I got the impression Norman Cook wanted to do his own thing and the others just sort of evolved in the type of music they made, I didn't think they became massively more mainstream although the Beautiful South lost the subtle social and political commentary that the Housemartins had. Still - can you imagine the Housemartins turning up to audition for X factor, they wouldn't have even got to the stage of facing the judges for audition.

I think Simon Moran (Warrington Wolves owner) was their promoter.

That reminds me of a story I always like to tell people. My dad was in a band with Ian Curtis in his younger days and at the first one or two of their gigs, a few people remarked that musically they weren't too bad, but the lead singer was utter shiite

I remember calling in to King Eddy one Saturday lunchtime, just before christmas 1986. The Housemartins walked in and one old pi[is[/ishead approached Heaton saying: "you're them aren't you? You're them off the telly, go on then, sing it"

A brief discussion resulted in "them" turning their backs to the bar and performing Caravan of Love perfectly. Heaton then went round with the hat, dumped the dosh on the bar and told the landlady to put it in the charity box.

They then simply supped up and left.

I think some people are a bit too bleeding heart about this idea that a group or artist "sells out" or sells their soul to the devil if they achieve success in terms of sales. For instance, I don't think that Beautiful South "sold out", as whatever else, the fact is that they produced (as in wrote, sang, played and produced) a whole array of near-perfect pop, which has stood the test of time very well, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with a popular song just because it's popular. Even God (i.e Neil Young, for the insouciants) did one (Heart of Gold) and while MOR it is, it's an all-time classic nonetheless and the history of music would be that bit poorer without it.

Also, while I admire singers who can write good material themselves, even more those that can compose the music too, I am very happy to include pure vocalists, even those who never wrote a notable lyric or melody, among my musical heroes. Some people's talent is in their voice, and occasional genius in how some can perform with that voice.

Sinatra for instance.

Ben Elton got it spot on in Chart Throb where he says the contestants are categorised into 4 categories :-

Mingers - those who are utterly desperate, there to be laughed at, will do whatever is asked of them on stage
Clingers - the 'needy' ones who 'want this so much', often with a sad back story
Blingers - those convinced of their own greatness despite having achieved nothing
Singers - those who can actually sing but who also need to fall into one of the other categories too

The ideal X Factor contestant is someone who exhibits overlapping traits of all 4 categories.

I agree I was not suggesting they exploited for money or anything like that, my point was their talent led them to earn money ....I loved the Housemartins and followed the Beautiful South I have seen them play many times. I met Heaton and Cook when they first formed loads of times, they went to Hull Uni, and used to drink regularly in Grafton Pub (my hubby knew them a lot better than I did) not sure about Cook but I know Paul has not particularly changed who he is, he still writes music for some very famous artists, the only difference now from then is he is loaded!

The other day while chatting to the barmaid about the Fix Factor, I got asked to go and sup in the other bar.

It was dire on Saturday.

Come on Frankie!!!!
Son of Wagner.
Win it for all the talentless people out there.

Something must have got broken on Saturday.
It must have been serious, because on Sunday Dermot was asking the panel who they think had smashed it.

Didn't Richard Keys get sacked for something like that?

Indeed he did.
A slightly different connotation of course.