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539 posts in 37 pages 
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Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_973.gif



I am a very experienced Photoshop user and the above is in my considered view conspiracist nonsense.

Images from space are all processed one way or another (although a vast array of unprocessed images is available too) and the images that make the media are specially processed to make sense and illustrate stuff for the layman. For example, false colours in a nebula, or on Pluto, to emphasize features.

Sadly, there is nothing that can be done by them which will not immediately be converted into a conspiracy theory by someone and they will have no shortage of adherents whose default position is that every single thing is part of some overwhelming conspiracy, from a middle-ground one like yours (that the rover is on Mars, but NASA is "covering up" something to do with life on Mars); to the "Don't Be Sheeple Nobody Nor Nothing Ever Left Earth You Can't Survive The Van Allen Belts Its All In A Hollywood Studio" extremists, to the adherents that we are all in real-life Truman Show.

I much prefer Occam in the typical scenario.

Often people link as you did) to videos by self-appointed "experts" - I tend from weary experience to give those a miss as the large quantity I have seen have invariably turned out to be by people who are deluded and are much easier to spot than your Photoshop examples. But I did dip into the one you posted, and while i have only watched 10% of it's 1 hour-plus, this was more than enough to entirely discredit this guy in my eyes as he has clearly lost sight of simple hard cold facts in pursuit of his own agenda. I stopped watching when he referred to the so-called Monolith on Mars (an interesting feature) and then panned images of many other features that he implied were a proliferation of other monoliths - when it would be obvious to a schoolchild that in fact they were lengthened shadoesw from standard rocks near the terminator at sunset/sunrise. An embarrassing thing to watch a man putting himself forward as an expert analyst of some sort propounding.

Occam might ask, if when the first Rovers landed on Mars, and when NASA clearly found out about "telltale organic processes", are they really so stupid if they wanted to for some (unexplained) reason hide the existence of these processes from mankind, that they would instead launch a series of further craft to the planet, and make freely available over many years millions of images from these craft?

That is my short answer. I am extremely grateful to NASA for their indefatigable efforts to advance our knowledge of the universe, and am in awe of their technical achievements most recently the superb Pluto mission. If however they have the technology to do all that - you think they would spoil the ship for a ha'porth of incompetent buffoons who couldn't fake images properly? And incompetent supervisors/superiors who could't properly check fake work before it is released to the world? Really? Given the importance of such an imagined task, would it be left to Australian backpackers on a gap year? And to cap it all, simultaneously release the raw data too? I don't think so.

People want to know what Mars looks like. That itself is a loaded question. The view from your own front window looks like a million different things and colours depending on the time of year, or the time of day. NASA has always readily agreed that colour reproduction isn't an exact science, and indeed isn't really possible. As a Photoshop expert, you will understand that colour balance is a highly subjective thing.
Secondly, people perceive colours differently, sometimes greatly so. (Remember the is it blue dress anyone? - had that been on Mars, the conspiracy world would have literally exploded!).

This difficulty (impossibility, if you like) is the precise reason why NASA often releases several versions, the raw file, unprocessed colour images and what they suggest would be true-colour versions. But there would be two true-colour versions, the first is what would the view look like in Earth-like lighting conditions, the second, what would it look like through the interference of Mars' atmosphere. Mars is called the red planet because it is. The atmosphere contains red dust. This gives a "false colour" to any image, to a greater or lesser extent, depending how much dust is in the air at your location. So, yes, an image could look very reddish if you were stood next to the rover; and yes, the same view could be much brighter and "earth like" if you filter out the red cast.

However, "manipulating" is very much part of astronomy. For example, no human eye would ever see the Cat's Eye Nebula as the bright, green/red object from many well-known images. Indeed, most of what the Hubble telescope (if you believe in its existence) produces is the result of very long exposures. Indeed the same could be said for the vast majority of astronomical images from any source including my own DSLR. Manipulation is therefore the norm, and one man's manipulation will produce a different looking image than the next. But neither are "fake" - they represent reality, over a longer timeframe. Or reality if you were several light years nearer, and had the eye sensitivity of a barn owl. The point is just to help visualise what is there, and visualize it in different ways (see for example the myriad shots of the Sun taken with hydrgogen alpha and any number of other filters).

I think overall your error is forgetting that the human eye can only se a tiny part of the electromagnetic spectrum, and only at high illumination levels. You are taking the 2+2 of standard attempts to image standard views, and making 666.

Now, I think that has dealt with the "Astronomy" aspect of this discussion. I don't really think we need to go down NASA conspiracy roads here as it would again derail it. I would be happy to continue rational discussion in a NASA conspiracy or whatever thread if you want to start one but this is just to draw people's attention to what they can go out and see in the night sky, which does include Mars (if you believe that it exists as a planet and is not a NASA holograph).

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Quote: TheButcher "Mugwump used the phrase 'demonstrate your faith in it.' Faith by definition is strong belief without evidence. '"


You see here is a CLASSIC example of cherry picking the facts to suit your argument.

You have provided the ONE definition which is in accordance with YOUR beliefs and completely IGNORED every other defintion such as"confidence or trust in a person or thing

What did I say about chalk outlines? icon_lol.gif

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So it's agreed then - only Mugwump and Stan are allowed on to massage each other "intellectually". Enjoy! You deserve each other. icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif and icon_lol.gif It was all getting a bit sleepy.gif anyway!

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Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_973.gif



Quote: FLAT STANLEY "..So from now on Can posters please refrain from the shape of the Earth debates from now on please'"

It's not compulsory to post replies, Stan. My aim is just to get you to THINK about it, so you can see where you are in error. It is very hard, as you refuse to consider alternatives, but I'm reasonably patient. If you can't handle the truth, then walk away.

Quote: FLAT STANLEY "... Ptolemy in the 1st century A.D. accurately predicted eclipses for six hundred years on the basis of a flat, stationary Earth with equal precision as anyone living today....regardless of geocentric or heliocentric, flat or globe Earth cosmologies, eclipses can be accurately calculated independent of such.'"

Whilst they could predict LUNAR eclipses with some degree of accuracy, they struggled with SOLAr eclipses, and to say that they could predict either with equal accuracy to modern astronomy is, simply put, completely wrong, so why make that claim up?

Quote: FLAT STANLEY " Furthermore, If the Moon is a globular sphere, and it is simply a reflector of the Sun's light, then where is the "hot spot" reflection that would be present if it were indeed a sphere. '"

Any fool can see that the Moon is a globe by observing it nightly, in particular the shadows cast on the moon, and the terminator area. It only takes a second to consider a view like this (which you can do with your own eyes, binoculars or telescope) to KNOW that the Moon is a globehttp://www.pa.msu.edu/people/frenchj/moon/moon-3day-2391.jpg" >

You could only think that it is not a globe, once you consider for a minute what you can see, if you were spectacularly stupid.

Quote: FLAT STANLEY "Supermoons prove a stationary plane.'"

Sorry but it is not legitimate to simply make such a bold "statement of fact" without explaining in what way they "prove" this. So-called supermoons (meaning the moon looks a bit bigger than at most other times) mean simply that. They occur at full moons when the Moon is at its closest approach to Earth, and occur because the orbit is not perfectly circular.

Quote: FLAT STANLEY "How many times do you need telling about this Australia bullcrap.. This is what we experience on our plane. If you take a paper plate and blue-tack it to the ceiling and stand on one side of it and mark the top with your pen, if you go to the other side and look at it you will find your "top" marking on the bottom. So it is possible to apparently turn things upside down. just by changing the direction you look at them.'"

The reason I have asked you this dozens of times is to make you THINK about it. But as I have already debunked your simplistic and frankly childish "explanation", you clearly refuse to think.

If you take a paper plate and blue-tack it to the ceiling and mark the top with your pen, you will have performed a miracle. Once you have blu-tacked it to the ceiling you obviously cannot mark the top. You'd need to remove it from the ceiling again, before you could mark the top.

What you are doing is repeating the same fundamental logical error that I already pointed out . Why?

What you seem to think is that by writing "TOP" on the bottom of the plate, this miraculously makes the point where you write "the top of the plate". It doesn't. Once the plate is blu-tacked to your ceiling, you can only ever see the BOTTOM of the plate! Writing "TOP" on it does not alter this simple and obvious fact, any more than writing "CAT" on a dog would make it a cat.

You should consider having a globe model of the moon suspended from your ceiling. Walk around that, and see what the effect is. It's exactly the same as if you hang a person from the ceiling, their "top" (head) will always look to be at the top. Their feet will always be at the bottom. Writing "TOP" on the soles of their shoes will not magically make them upside down.

You are failing to understand an extremely basic point. The effect seen from Australia would be that a hypothetical giant plate stuck to the "bottom" of the Moon as seen from the UK would to an Australian look to be stuck to the "top" of the Moon. That is the effect you need to explain. A "TOP becomes BOTTOM" effect. Like this Moon as viewed from Australia. From the UK, it's the "other way up". (You'll love this pic Stan since as luck would have it, it also shows the silhouette of the ISS)

This image, incidentally is by an amateur Australian astrophotographer, Dylan O'Donnell, who appears to have no known connection with NASA or any other space agency, but just enjoys taking photos and putting them in the public domain. You can see more of his work here]'"

No Stan, you don't get it - not at all. I am trying to help, but you do need to think about it for a moment.

If the Earth is flat, and the moon is flat, then you have a huge problem. Imagine I am looking at the Moon as it is very low in the South. You say it is a flat plane. Yet I see it as a perfect circle. that must mean it was not parallel to the ground I stand on, it must be almost at right angles to the ground. Right? Otherwise, it wouldn't look perfectly round.

This here Moon is, from my perspective, in the direction of Australia. If it looks flat to me, than nobody from Australia will be able to see it at all, now will they? Because they would only be able to see the OTHER side of that flat disc.

The other simple debunk of a "flat Moon" model is that except if the Moon were directly above your head, it would NEVER look round, I would look increasingly oval the further away from it you walked. Just like that plate stuck to your ceiling.

I fact, if the Moon were a flat plate, then it would only ever appear totally round to one person on Earth, and that is the person directly opposite where the plate was facing. To everyone else, it would be an oval, and if they were so far away that the Moon was near the horizon, then it would be a very elongated thin oval.

The full moon never looks like an oval from any point on Earth, ever.

Now all I ask is you THINK about these things. If you do, you will inevitably see the hopeless fallacy of your "explanation" and that it cannot be squared with the facts as you actually observe them.

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Quote: FLAT STANLEY "
How many times do you need telling about this Australia bullcrap.. This is what we experience on our plane. If you take a paper plate and blue-tack it to the ceiling and stand on one side of it and mark the top with your pen, if you go to the other side and look at it you will find your "top" marking on the bottom. So it is possible to apparently turn things upside down. just by changing the direction you look at them. '"


So, you're not totally convinced? Possible, apparently ... somewhat unconvincing.

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I think this thread has reached the end of its useful life.

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17:00
Toulouse
v
Sheffield
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R24
20:00
Catalans
v
Wigan
 Sun 1st Sep
     National Rugby League 2024-R26
05:00
Newcastle
v
Gold Coast
07:05
Sydney
v
Canberra
     Womens Super League 2024-R12
12:00
LeedsW
v
York V
12:00
WiganW
v
Wire W
14:00
Hudds W
v
St.HelensW
       League One 2024-R22
14:30
Crusaders
v
Cornwall
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R24
15:00
Huddersfield
v
St.Helens
15:00
LondonB
v
Leeds
       Championship 2024-R24
15:00
Batley
v
Widnes
15:00
Doncaster
v
Halifax
15:00
Featherstone
v
Barrow
15:00
Swinton
v
Wakefield
15:00
Whitehaven
v
York
       League One 2024-R22
15:00
Oldham
v
Workington
15:00
Rochdale
v
Keighley
 Thu 5th Sep 2024
     National Rugby League 2024-R27
10:50
Brisbane
v
Melbourne
 Fri 6th Sep 2024
     National Rugby League 2024-R27
09:00
Wests
v
Parramatta
11:00
Souths
v
Sydney
     Womens Super League 2024-R13
17:15
Wire W
v
St.HelensW
17:30
LeedsW
v
FeatherstoneW
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R25
20:00
Castleford
v
Leigh
20:00
Leeds
v
Hull FC
20:00
Warrington
v
St.Helens
20:00
Wigan
v
Hull KR
 Sat 7th Sep 2024
     National Rugby League 2024-R27
06:00
St.George
v
Canberra
08:30
Canterbury
v
NQL Cowboys
10:35
Penrith
v
Gold Coast
     Womens Super League 2024-R13
12:00
BarrowW
v
Hudds W
       Championship 2024-R25
15:00
Barrow
v
Toulouse
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R25
18:00
Salford
v
Catalans
 Sun 8th Sep 2024
     National Rugby League 2024-R27
05:00
Manly
v
Cronulla
07:05
Newcastle
v
Dolphins
     Womens Super League 2024-R13
12:00
WiganW
v
York V
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R25
15:00
Huddersfield
v
LondonB
       Championship 2024-R25
15:00
Batley
v
Doncaster
15:00
Halifax
v
Dewsbury
15:00
Sheffield
v
Bradford
15:00
Swinton
v
Featherstone
15:00
Wakefield
v
Whitehaven
15:00
Widnes
v
York
 Fri 13th Sep 2024
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R26
20:00
Leigh
v
Hull KR
20:00
St.Helens
v
Castleford
20:00
Wigan
v
Leeds
 Sat 14th Sep 2024
     Womens Super League 2024-R14
14:00
FeatherstoneW
v
York V
14:00
St.HelensW
v
BarrowW
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R26
15:00
Hull FC
v
Salford
       Championship 2024-R26
15:00
Barrow
v
Whitehaven
15:00
Bradford
v
Batley
15:00
Dewsbury
v
Swinton
15:00
Doncaster
v
Widnes
15:00
Featherstone
v
Sheffield
15:00
Wakefield
v
York
17:00
Toulouse
v
Halifax
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R26
20:00
Catalans
v
LondonB
 Sun 15th Sep 2024
     Womens Super League 2024-R14
12:00
WiganW
v
LeedsW
14:00
Hudds W
v
Wire W
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R26
15:00
Huddersfield
v
Warrington
 Fri 20th Sep 2024
       Championship 2024-R27
19:30
Sheffield
v
York
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R27
20:00
Huddersfield
v
Castleford
20:00
Hull FC
v
Catalans
20:00
Hull KR
v
Leeds
20:00
Leigh
v
St.Helens
20:00
Warrington
v
LondonB
20:00
Wigan
v
Salford
 Sat 21st Sep 2024
       Championship 2024-R27
18:00
Featherstone
v
Dewsbury
18:00
Widnes
v
Toulouse
19:30
Wakefield
v
Barrow
 Sun 22nd Sep 2024
       Championship 2024-R27
15:00
Batley
v
Swinton
15:00
Halifax
v
Bradford
15:00
Swinton
v
Doncaster
 Sat 28th Sep 2024
       Championship 2024-R28
17:00
Toulouse
v
Batley
 Sun 29th Sep 2024
       Championship 2024-R28
15:00
Barrow
v
Widnes
15:00
Bradford
v
Swinton
15:00
Dewsbury
v
Sheffield
15:00
Wakefield
v
Doncaster
15:00
Whitehaven
v
Halifax
15:00
York
v
Featherstone
 Sun 27th Oct 2024
     Mens Internationals 2024-R2
14:30
England M
v
Samoa M
 Sat 2nd Nov 2024
     Womens Internationals 2024-R2
12:00
ENGLAND W
v
WALES W
     Mens Internationals 2024-R3
14:30
England M
v
Samoa M
ALL SCORES PROVIDED BY RLFANS.COM (SETTINGS)
Matches on TV
Sat 3rd Aug
SL
15:00
Hull FC-St.Helens
SL
17:30
Salford-Leeds
Sun 4th Aug
SL
15:00
LondonB-Catalans
Thu 8th Aug
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Salford
Fri 9th Aug
SL
20:00
Huddersfield-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Castleford
Sat 10th Aug
SL
15:00
Leeds-Wigan
Sun 11th Aug
SL
15:00
Leigh-Hull FC
SL
15:00
LondonB-Warrington
Sat 17th Aug
SL
19:30
Warrington-Leeds
SL
17:00
Wigan-St.Helens
SL
14:30
Hull FC-LondonB
Sun 18th Aug
SL
13:30
Leigh-Salford
SL
15:00
Catalans-Hull KR
SL
18:30
Huddersfield-Castleford
Fri 23rd Aug
SL
20:00
Castleford-Warrington
SL
20:00
Leeds-Catalans
Sat 24th Aug
SL
15:00
St.Helens-Hull KR
SL
14:00
Salford-Huddersfield
Sun 25th Aug
SL
15:00
LondonB-Leigh
Fri 2nd Aug
SL 20 Warrington4-22Hull KR
NRL 22 NZ Warriors20-30Parramatta
NRL 22 Dolphins34-40Sydney
Thu 1st Aug
SL 20 Castleford10-20Leigh
SL 20 Wigan26-14Huddersfield
NRL 22 Wests30-48NQL Cowboys
Sun 28th Jul
NRL 21 St.George10-46Penrith
NRL 21 Dolphins14-21Gold Coast
NRL 21 Canberra32-12Souths
CH 19 Batley16-22Halifax
CH 19 Doncaster37-30Barrow
CH 19 Sheffield78-24Whitehaven
CH 19 Wakefield46-18Featherstone
CH 19 Widnes25-6Bradford
CH 19 York34-4Swinton
L1 17 Newcastle34-44Cornwall
L1 17 Hunslet24-32Workington
L1 17 Keighley36-12Midlands
L1 17 Rochdale10-14Oldham
Sat 27th Jul
SL 19 Salford30-22Castleford
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Hull KR 20 503 259 244 30
Wigan 19 495 258 237 30
Warrington 20 502 267 235 28
Catalans 19 366 274 92 24
Salford 19 355 366 -11 24
St.Helens 19 455 256 199 22
 
Leeds 19 355 342 13 20
Leigh 19 392 286 106 19
Huddersfield 20 350 453 -103 14
Castleford 20 336 523 -187 13
Hull FC 19 268 566 -298 6
LondonB 19 198 725 -527 2
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 17 584 206 378 32
Sheffield 17 488 283 205 24
Toulouse 16 468 220 248 23
Widnes 17 410 307 103 21
Bradford 17 397 297 100 21
Doncaster 17 318 410 -92 17
 
York 18 428 345 83 16
Featherstone 17 440 359 81 16
Batley 17 284 366 -82 16
Swinton 17 342 422 -80 12
Halifax 17 318 459 -141 12
Barrow 16 255 458 -203 12
Whitehaven 17 336 556 -220 12
Dewsbury 18 224 560 -336 2
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