Cronus, you state: "The September riots escalated due to insufficient police numbers and the 'stand-off' tactic. Copycat riots and looting sprang up across London, and then the country as people saw the police as being unable and/or unwilling to contain or control the disorder. This is not simply my opinion, it's fact".

I suggest you amend the above to clarify that it is a fact that there were similar incidents of disorder in other UK cities. It is however conjecture that these incidents occurred as a result of the numbers of police addressing the London disturbances. Until those involved come out and state that they instigated riots solely due the fact that the police looked like they couldnt handle it, you and everyone else are proposing a theory. I have little doubt that those theories will reflect the political/social views of the individuals delivering them.

I would also state that you have a habit of interpreting others statements in a manner that suits your own argument. Not a habit that will endear you to the nuetrals. I never once stated that disorder should be left to run its course with no intervention, neither did Smokey TA.

Intervention needs to be proportionate, it must also be designed and implemented in a manner which will not escalate the situation in either scale or severity. Need I remind you that civil disorder of this kind is a symptom of larger and wider issues in society. And lets not forget that those you label "scrotes" are as much a part of our society as you.

I have very grave reservations about yours and others call for violent response from those charged with keeping the peace. I have already alluded to Northern Ireland, there are many similarexamples worldwide, where armed troops occupy the streets and still they will riot.

The debate should be about prevention, repairing lines of communication and trust between the police, community leaders and the population in general.

Regarding the riots, have you ever thought that events can run unconnected in parallel?
Or that there can be strands in events, like rope laid out in series on the ground in a time line, but they may not all be connected up. Pull one end and you see that it doesn't affect the extreme other end.
That's how things can happen, yet appear to have some loose connection.
People in London to a large degree and certainly people in other cities didn't come into the fray because of Duggan, they looked via the media and saw unchecked rioting and thought chavishly, we'll have some of that. So for them alone that was the cause.

Right. The thread has been cleaned.

Continue the discussion by all means – but if it goes off topic in the same manner again, then I will hand out bans.

I'll add ...

I locked this thread overnight a few days ago because of bickering but was persuaded to re-open. I asked for it to be kept civil at that point. I have read the posts which have been removed and have to say as well as being disappointed by them, had I have been around last night or first thing this morning the thread would have been locked.

Final warning on this topic ... Keep it civil or the thread goes.

I'm tempted to suggest that you need to grow up and get some.

But okay – I'm going to be more subtle, even in closing this thread.

Strange as it may seem, we – that's the mods – do not conspire against anyone else. We do not sit down and discuss who we 'like' and who we do not 'like'. We do not discuss what threads we 'like' and do not.

I am getting pretty ed off with the paranoid brigade, who appear to believe in conspiracy theories, regardless of the facts.

Now – that's a personal thing. So deal with it or not.

But hey - feel proud: you've finished off this thread.